What's Gone Wrong With Rock?

[ep1str0phy]

Nobody can play like Hendrix, Clapton, Page, Beck, SRV, et al.

Technical brilliance should never be confused with actual brilliance. It's like being an ace typist. Though I'll admit that Hendrix and Page made brilliant things, Clapton was only vaguely useful if he was in an interesting band with someone called Allman, and the others (with the possible exception of SRV- I've never listened) are glorified session men.

Plenty of folks can still write a good tune, too. This gets us back to the 90-95% of everything is and always has been crap, music, film, art etc. Like every freakin' hippie in the 60s was brilliant?

PS for the anti-Radiohead crew: They're really good, and In Rainbows bears that out. For me, anyway.

There are and have been a lot of what massmind would call "stars" in the last few years, and an exponential number of people willing to associate with them. Not that it's all good--

Probably REALLY unpopular, but I have a soft spot for Pearl Jam.

Page plays live like someone knitting with oven mitts. Phenomenal studio player, and the O2 thing was fun, but I get the indication from watching Page these days that we should probably just move on.

[Quincy]

As much as I like King Crimson I also like to go to rock shows and see actual women in attendance. Don't think I have ever seen one at a King Crimson show.

I know a woman who still marvels at there being no line whatsoever for the bathroom at the KC/Tool show a few years back.

[JETman]

Still, dudes (and dudettes), where are today's stars (and I do not mean stars in the mass media sense)? And what exactly are today's brilliant tunes?

I agree that Page live (while high on whatever) never sounded good to me. But glorified session player? I think not.

Clapton may have only sounded good in good bands, but last I looked, music is STILL predominantly a TEAM sport!

sjfarrell - I am far from a hippie -- just a baby boomer like you. The only difference is that I have been listening to music since I was three, in a place -- NYC -- where I was exposed to any and all types of music. I have literally seen - and heard -- it all, and learned at a very early age not to mistake technical brilliance for actual brilliance.

Btw, SRV is worth a listen if you like good blues rock.

[Rob C]

Another problem in today's music. There are no star instrumentalists or songwriters with whom we can identify, like back in the heyday. Nobody can play like Hendrix, Clapton, Page, Beck, SRV, et al. Nobody can write songs like Lennon, McCartney, Townshend, et al. That being said, I realized a long time ago that the pool has simply dried up. The best of the best has already happened. Why bother looking for more? "Dig deep", says Cliff. Why? I don't need to. There's so much history in jazz and other music to explore. If the mood strikes me to listen to rock, I keep going back to the stuff that done me right in the first place. Groups like U2, Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Coldplay just plain leave me cold. And Green Day is for 12 year olds. They sound like they're stuck doing the Clash doing early Who.

Seems odd that on the one hand you say there's no need to "bother" to "dig deep", but on the other you want to complain about the state of rock. I guess ignorance isn't bliss?

[JETman]

Why is it odd? There is no ignorance. I've heard it. I don't like it. It's not an age thing. It's a time thing. I no longer hope I die before I get old. I want to get old listening to good music, that's all. Besides, this is kind of informative, no? It's especially interesting to hear a 31 year old Clifford rhapsodize about rock when he didn't live through its bread and butter period.

[sjarrell]

Still, dudes (and dudettes), where are today's stars (and I do not mean stars in the mass media sense)? And what exactly are today's brilliant tunes?

I agree that Page live (while high on whatever) never sounded good to me. But glorified session player? I think not.

Clapton may have only sounded good in good bands, but last I looked, music is STILL predominantly a TEAM sport!

sjfarrell - I am far from a hippie -- just a baby boomer like you. The only difference is that I have been listening to music since I was three, in a place -- NYC -- where I was exposed to any and all types of music. I have literally seen - and heard -- it all, and learned at a very early age not to mistake technical brilliance for actual brilliance.

Btw, SRV is worth a listen if you like good blues rock.

I wasn't calling you a hippie! I was talking about 60s artists in a grossly general sorta way.

And I exempted Page from the glorified label. I mean, have you hear Celebration Day lately?

Still, the death of rock is being exaggerated in certain quarters. How come the death of country, r&b and rap is being ignored? Is classical dead? Jazz? All have had periods of good ideas exploding everywhere, followed by periods of widespread mediocrity. But there's always little pockets of goodness post heyday...

[sjarrell]

Seems odd that on the one hand you say there's no need to "bother" to "dig deep", but on the other you want to complain about the state of rock. I guess ignorance isn't bliss?

Nice avatar. Hadn't heard Bazerk in years and picked it up last week to enjoy some Bomb Squad that I hadn't already memorized. Holy crap that's a wall of sound.

What's gone wrong with rap? Kids these days...

[ep1str0phy]

I don't think that Page is a glorified studio musician--though I'll maintain that that is where he thrived in terms of taste and technique--but, rock being what it is, hero worship goes a long way toward blunting critical edges. That, too, is a problem.

[Shawn]

Still, the death of rock is being exaggerated in certain quarters. How come the death of country, r&b and rap is being ignored? Is classical dead? Jazz? All have had periods of good ideas exploding everywhere, followed by periods of widespread mediocrity. But there's always little pockets of goodness post heyday...

[JETman]

Regardless of what you might think Page is, he still masterminded one of the most successful rock bands of all time. Whether they were the best is a topic for another time, another forum.

Anyway, my point is that there are no masterminds today, or anytime within the last few decades. No bands putting out superior music played by superior musicians. No touring bands that you just HAVE to see.

Btw, despite the protests of Ray Davies and Pete Townshend, who do you think played geetar on some of those early Kinks and Who sides?

[Robert J]

The primeral use of rock music is to piss off previous generations, so, the fact you hate it the current proves its effectiveness. Start liking the music that your teenage son or daughter enjoys and you can be pretty sure it will make him reach for other kinds of music.

Or conversely, if THEY start liking YOUR music, then you can reach for Pere Ubu.

Oh man, I saw Pere Ubu last fall on a "4 day tour" that hit Toronto, Montreal and Upstate NY. It was a concert that completely recharged my faith in the power of ___ (I won't say "rock", but that feeling, of, you know, intense sound channelling great emotion and unbridled lyrics).

I would say that concert - for the 400 or so of us there - was one of the best live shows I have seen in any genre.

My teenage son already thinks me odd for listening to Ubu.

[JETman]

My teenage son already thinks me odd for listening to Ubu.

My condolences. I've gotten my pre-teenage son into the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, the Who, Yes, King Crimson and Lambs era Genesis. Now he CAN'T think ME odd

Of course, the downside is that both he and his sister tell me that "your jazz sucks"!

[Robert J]

Ep1str0py, speaking as a woman, you need a new girlfriend; don't let sex or a handjob convince you of Radiohead's importance or accomplishment. It's also an insult to dozens (at least) of excellent, varied ambient musicians world wide that you bothered with that solo album. You seem like a serious guy thinking, often, about serious things, so I speak to you seriously, as an older friend, or GMILF, if you'd flatter a 64-year-old that way, who hates to see you conned by some broad who bought into the same media myth Radiohead's inane singer (and his humor-impaired fans) claims to decry, although he will take the money.

My nephew was the guitarist for this band--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBzXBSUDo4U

Of course, there are plenty of assholes who'd rather listen to their fucking Beatles records, then and now, but I was never among them. On the other hand, this then-brilliant group of Young Wisconsinites went on to do cover Aerosmith, and wish for a bigger smoke machine but wow, they sure made their own crop circles once.

Die Kreuzen! Never thought I'd see a mention on Org of them. Saw them a few times in the 80s as well as several other Touch & Go bands. Now that label (and Albini) never had anything go wrong

[sjarrell]

The only difference is that I have been listening to music since I was three, in a place -- NYC -- where I was exposed to any and all types of music.

I grew up in NC, where I had to learn how to forage for goodness in lieu of having it served up. But we had music here when I was 3 too. I was six when I missed Monk's week at the Frog & Nightgown. I did see the Monkees that year. My memory's pretty vague, but it's my understanding that Hendrix opened that tour.

My 5 year old likes the Monkees.

[Robert J]

My teenage son already thinks me odd for listening to Ubu.

My condolences. I've gotten my pre-teenage son into the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, the Who, Yes, King Crimson and Lambs era Genesis. Now he CAN'T think ME odd

Of course, the downside is that both he and his sister tell me that "your jazz sucks"!

My wife as well, for a different reason. Last summer I was enjoying the guitar solo to "Final Solution" in my car and - while oblivious to life around me - I scraped the side panel of the vehicle against my garage while parking it

[JETman]

The only difference is that I have been listening to music since I was three, in a place -- NYC -- where I was exposed to any and all types of music.

I grew up in NC, where I had to learn how to forage for goodness in lieu of having it served up. But we had music here when I was 3 too. I was six when I missed Monk's week at the Frog & Nightgown. I did see the Monkees that year. My memory's pretty vague, but it's my understanding that Hendrix opened that tour.

My 5 year old likes the Monkees.

So you think we New Yawkas have goodness served up to us? Believe me, I did plenty of foraging. I was not feeding you some "mine's bigger than yours" nonsense. I was simply stating the facts. More music and arts in bigger cities, period. Growing up in NYC did afford me options other than taking drugs and partaking in pre-teen sex.

Btw, I didn't say we had music in NY when I was 3. I said I was listening to it seriously when I was 3. There's a difference.

FWIW, ALL and I do mean ALL the jazz greats that you and I worship played in NYC many years before and many years after I was born. As a matter of fact, the Monk tribute concert (think 4cd Interpretations of Monk on DIW and Koch) took place at MY alma mater!

[.:.impossible]

I started listening seriously when I was two. By three, I was already telling people that music was dead.

[porcy62]

I started listening seriously when I was two. By three, I was already telling people that music was dead.

Actually I could recognize a Monk's minor chord since I was in my mom's womb, me think three months pregnant...maybe four.

For my first birthday I got the partiture of "Die Kunst der Fuge" as present.

I killed my parents just after they gave me the first Beatles album. That was too much!

Here in the psychiatric row of the prison I can listen to all the music I like and the guards and the other inmates call me "Tonmeister".

Edited June 24, 2008 by porcy62

[.:.impossible]

Hey, aren't you prog dudes s into Sparta, At the Drive-in, The Mars Volta?

[porcy62]

Hey, aren't you prog dudes s into Sparta, At the Drive-in, The Mars Volta?

Sparta, nahh, I am from Athens, (Ancient Grece, not Jimmy Carter's Georgia), Pericles was my schoolmate.

What about you? Aren't you the swinging dude at cell block 9?

Edited June 24, 2008 by porcy62

[Teasing the Korean]

PJ Harvey lately sounds like a parody of herself -

but PJ Proby ROCKS!

[BruceH]

I think Sloan were great, but their current offerings (or those of the past five years) haven't really held up. Twice Removed was such an early peak.

I agree that Action Pact isn't that good, but seriously, Never Hear the End of It sounds like some sort of pop-rock masterpiece to me.

I'll listen on my lunch break. Heard the one that came out 6/10 yet?

Parallel Play? Yes, and so far I'd have to say it strikes me as no Never Hear the End of It, even in abbreviated form. Better than Action Pact though. Better than Pretty Together too.

Edited June 24, 2008 by BruceH

[Teasing the Korean]

In the late 1990s, I was working in an office. I was in my early 30s at the time.

My boss was 20 years older than me, in his early 50s.

One day he came back from lunch with a Tower Records bag. To make small talk, I asked him what he bought. His eyes lit up and he said "The new U2!"

I remembered seeing U2 live in 1982 before they were anything, when you could walk right up to the ticket center with no line and buy U2 tickets.

And here we were 15 or so years later, the guy in his 50s is buying U2, and I'm spending my lunch breaks digging through vinyl in thrift stores, hoping to find oddball easy listening albums on LP - records that were made for guys like my boss during that era.

Funny how everything gets turned on its ass.

[Alexander]

sjfarrell - I am far from a hippie -- just a baby boomer like you.

There's your problem. Boomers...ugh. They think they invented everything interesting or important since the end of WWII. "I was there, man. I remember where I was when JFK was assassinated..." Speaking as a baby BUSTER (born in 1970 when people just weren't having babies), I have to say that I REALLY came to despise the boomers as a grew up. Nothing was EVER geared to people my age. It was either aimed at my parents or my younger brother. There weren't enough people my age to make it worth their while.

Then the early 90s happened. And there was something that was just being made by people MY age. And it was bitter. And dark. And nihilistic. And wonderful. It put all the flower power shit up against the wall and pulled the trigger until the chamber was empty. I still listen to Nirvana and Pearl Jam and Beck. Hell, yeah!

I do love music from the sixties and seventies, I just don't fool myself into thinking that it's the only stuff that matters.

Best songwriting team since Lennon/McCartney? Morrisey and Marr!

[Alexander]

Anyway, my point is that there are no masterminds today, or anytime within the last few decades. No bands putting out superior music played by superior musicians. No touring bands that you just HAVE to see.

Jack White

Brian Burton

Sufjan Stevens

To name just three...

If those guys aren't masterminds, I don't know what is.