The Beatles' Brilliance Explained...

[Kreilly]

Thanks, Jim S.! I wish I knew enough to rattle stuff like that off.

One question: Back in the "I Want to Hold Your Hand" days, do you really think that teenage Lennon and McCartney, who had never studied music, sat around and said, "OK, we will go to the III7 to set up a resolution to the VI. But then we will freak everybody out by not going there." My own inclination would be to think that they learned a bunch of chords and decided to mix it up in unusual ways, and it just came out.

That is not to say that there can't be genius at work here, but I wonder how conscious it was.

I find the whole idea to be silly. "I want to hold your hand" has all the sophistication its title suggests. No qualitative distinction from "Last Train to Clarksville".

[JSngry]

Thanks, Jim S.! I wish I knew enough to rattle stuff like that off.

One question: Back in the "I Want to Hold Your Hand" days, do you really think that teenage Lennon and McCartney, who had never studied music, sat around and said, "OK, we will go to the III7 to set up a resolution to the VI. But then we will freak everybody out by not going there." My own inclination would be to think that they learned a bunch of chords and decided to mix it up in unusual ways, and it just came out.

That is not to say that there can't be genius at work here, but I wonder how conscious it was.

I find the whole idea to be silly. "I want to hold your hand" has all the sophistication its title suggests. No qualitative distinction from "Last Train to Clarksville".

Lyrically, yes. Musically, no.

[Teasing the Korean]

Lyrically, yes. Musically, no.

Agreed.

All these years later, I am still impressed by the rhythms of the melodic phrases in some of their early songs.

[AllenLowe]

if you want to talk about British musical sources for the Beatles, I think you have to point at McCarney and what were clearly British music hall/vaudeville origins - look at When I'm 64, for one good example, and Good Day Sunshine - but the real divide between the Beatles and some of the other British bands was the split between their Chuck Berry/pop sources and the harder blues sources of groups like the Rolling Stones, The Pretty Things, Graham Bond, etc. In his book Stone ALone Bill Wyman says that htere was a real schism between these two schools and even some real musical/personal hostility.

also, McCartney was/is VERY aware of standard song form, Tin Pan Alley, etc -

[Teasing the Korean]

if you want to talk about British musical sources for the Beatles, I think you have to point at McCarney and what were clearly British music hall/vaudeville origins - look at When I'm 64, for one good example, and Good Day Sunshine - but the real divide between the Beatles and some of the other British bands was the split between their Chuck Berry/pop sources and the harder blues sources of groups like the Rolling Stones, The Pretty Things, Graham Bond, etc. In his book Stone ALone Bill Wyman says that htere was a real schism between these two schools and even some real musical/personal hostility.

also, McCartney was/is VERY aware of standard song form, Tin Pan Alley, etc -

For a long time, histories of pop music in the rock era completely overlooked the influence of Tin Pan Alley and the Film/Broadway songwriters - what is now known as the "Great American Songbook." Blowhards like Dave Marsh reduced rock music to simplified formula that went something like C&W + R&B = Rock 'n' Roll.

As ubiquitous as rock has become, it's easy to forget that when the Beatles came along, there was only a few years worth of rock to copy or steal from. Naturally, creative types HAD to look to other sources.

[AllenLowe]

glad you mentioned Dave Marsh, who just may be the WORST writer with a good reputation that I have ever read - his book Louis Louis is almost illiterate - yikes, I don't know how this guy got where he is -

[Teasing the Korean]

glad you mentioned Dave Marsh, who just may be the WORST writer with a good reputation that I have ever read - his book Louis Louis is almost illiterate - yikes, I don't know how this guy got where he is -

And in everything he writes, he has to work in that he was listening to "black music" before any other white people were. Useless.

[BruceH]

if you want to talk about British musical sources for the Beatles, I think you have to point at McCarney and what were clearly British music hall/vaudeville origins - look at When I'm 64, for one good example, and Good Day Sunshine - but the real divide between the Beatles and some of the other British bands was the split between their Chuck Berry/pop sources and the harder blues sources of groups like the Rolling Stones, The Pretty Things, Graham Bond, etc. In his book Stone ALone Bill Wyman says that htere was a real schism between these two schools and even some real musical/personal hostility.

also, McCartney was/is VERY aware of standard song form, Tin Pan Alley, etc -

Indeed. It's hard to imagine the early Stones covering "A Taste of Honey."

[A Lark Ascending]

Can't say I hear much folk influence in the Beatles, though plenty of music hall.

However, the last two Mojo magazines have been dissecting 'The White Album' and comment on how impressed they were with the folk guitar thing that was raging by that time, McCartney and Lennon sitting down to work out how Davy Graham, Bert Jansch etc did it. Donovan, apparently, showed them. 'Blackbird' is suggested as one of the fruits.

[Aggie87]

Wasn't sure where to put this, and didn't think it was worth a new thread, so here it is, LOL.

May Pang did an online chat today from Denver, where she's participating in some sort of Lennon birthday event. I got a question in at the end of the discussion:

From Aggie: If Yoko was actually instrumental in putting you and John together originally, why do you think she doesn't talk with you these days?

May_Pang: Even though Yoko wanted us to be together it was actually John who pursued me. I decided to go off with him. It was really John himself. She suggested, but it was John who initiated it at the end.

Not really a direct answer about Yoko, but still interesting. Pang has a few interesting photos on her website - her with Julian & Cynthia, Paul, etc.

Another interesting question:

noozgroop: Can you give more information about the photo of John and Paul, circa 1974, in your book? What went on that day?

May_Pang: Just relaxing. It was the day after the first visit to the Harry Nilsson session. The next day he brought Linda and the kids so everyone was relaxing at the house in Santa Monica. It was just a day at the house. If anyone was hungry they got food. Paul sat at the piano and played piano. Mary looked at him and said 'Dad, are you some kind of pop star?' I think she was 5 or 6 at the time.

Edited October 9, 2008 by Aggie87

[Aggie87]

If anyone's interested in this, I don't think you'll find it cheaper.

Ok so I was wrong. There's a seller on Amazon Marketplace offering this now for $16.62, and it's being fulfilled through Amazon. Despite the description (scratches, wrinkles, etc), I think these are new copies. People on the Hoffman Board are reporting receiving them in perfect condition.

So $16.62 + $2.98 shipping, total of $19.60. That's a good deal on this package (despite any opinions about the movie itself LOL).

Also, it qualifies as an Amazon purchase, so if you combine it with any other items and the total is over $25, shipping is free.