Virgin Megastore in Times Square to close

[mgraham333]

Report: Virgin Megastore Times Square To Close In Q1 ’09

June 05, 2008 - Retail

By Ed Christman, N.Y.

The Virgin Megastore in New York’s Times Square will close down in the first quarter of 2009, according to a published report that quotes a senior executive at the Vornado Realty Trust.

That company and the Related Cos., both real estate companies, formed a joint- venture to acquire the 10-unit Virgin Entertainment Group North America in September 2007. Vornado owns 49% of Virgin, while Related owns 51%. Neither company was available for comment at deadline.

The other New York Megastore in Union Square is scheduled to close at the same time, according to the Web site of the Winick Realty Group, a real estate broker that is shopping the site’s lease.

"We bought the Virgin business to wind it down to get a hold of the real estate," Sandeep Mathrani, Vornado's executive VP and head of its Retail Real Estate Division, told Reuters.

He said that Virgin pays only a $54 per square-foot when the market rent in the area is about $700.

In general, Vornado has a dim view on retail. In the same Reuters article, Vornado president Michael Fascitelli said, “We think there's a recession going on. We think it could get much tougher in the retail sector.”

Ironically, those comments come one month after the Virgin Megastore chain announced that it had achieved one of the most successful years, which it said was notable considering the challenging U.S. marketplace.

The company said it was up 11.5% nationally since last year on a same store basis, and up more than 10% in the New York City market alone.

Source

[Rooster_Ties]

The only time I was the Virgin Megastore in Times Square (circa 1998?), it wasn't even HALF as interesting as the various big, 'downtownish' Tower Records locations in Chicago (the Tower right downtown (formerly Rose Records) - and the Tower about 20 or 25 blocks further north). And even then, Virgin's prices were horible (98% of everything was absolutely full 'list' price).

I went through their jazz and classical A to Z for 90+ minutes total, and I only found title after title (thousands of them, sure) -- but all stuff I could easily get elsewhere, or easily order (from a local store in Kansas City), and pay a lot less. I specifically remember writing down about 15 jazz titles that looked really interesting, and about 30 classical titles -- did a little research later (back home), and later ordered half of them from my local Streetside in KC -- and saved at least $3 or $4 per disc.

They were really big, I'll grant them that. But their inventory was only stuff on common labels that was all in print, all pretty common material all the same. Though LOTS of inventory, to be sure.

Their import section was paltry to nonexistent.

I think I bought three discs that I couldn't be totally sure were easy to get elsewhere, only to later find I could have gotten them locally and saved $10 or $12 total on them (collectively).

The one in London three years later was just as bad. How can a CD store that's THAT big, suck SO bad????????????

Edited June 17, 2008 by Rooster_Ties

[sidewinder]

How can a CD store that's THAT big, suck SO bad????????????

Two words - Richard Branson.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

How can a CD store that's THAT big, suck SO bad????????????

Two words - Richard Branson.

I think that's unfair.

Branson had a great idea in the late sixties, absolutely of its time, which was to make record shops a lot more informal. At the Virgin in Brighton, you used to lie on a bed to listen to albums. And it was hugely successful.

I never really expect too much from a general record shop. If I went into a shop that specialised in music in which I'm interested - a Gospel shop like Miracle Music in Brixton, a Jazz shop like Mole, or Sterns African music, just up the road from Mole, I expected, and was never disappointed, to find stuff that would give me lessons. You can't expect that from a general shop. What you can hope for from such places is that there'll be a few things that are interesting when(ever) you go in, though it might take a couple of hours to find them; especially if you have to look through R&B, Blues, Soul, Reggae, World, Hip Hop and Gospel sections as well as Jazz.

Within those parameters, I always found Virgin to be OK, right from the beginning. I bought Joe Zawinul's "Money in the pocket" and Ira Sullivan's "Horizons" there (Brighton) in 1970 - didn't like them but that's not the point. And, from the time they opened up in Cardiff (late seventies), the Cardiff store was a reliable place to shop. Something is due to local management, despite these chain stores' appearance as corporate monoliths. The HMV shop in Brighton was/is very good, my mate tells me. I had to ask him to stop sending me HMV gift vouchers, but send Virgin ones instead, because HMV in Cardiff was a total desert, which is what he thought of his local Virgin. Of course things have got a lot worse in the last few years, and Virgin (now Zavvi) isn't worth looking in.

MG

[JohnJ]

How can a CD store that's THAT big, suck SO bad????????????

Two words - Richard Branson.

I think that's unfair.

Agreed. Quite apart from the stores, I fly a lot and in every respect Virgin Airlines is one of the very best.

[BillF]

In Britain there has been a management buy-out and the stores are now trading under the unlikely name of Zavvi. The wily Branson wasn't going to hang on to a loss-making activity like trying to sell records nowadays!

[Jazzjet]

I remember going into Branson's very first record shop on the upper floor of a small cheapo fashion store in London's Oxford Street. That was full of cushions and the familiar smell of patchouli oil and spliffs. I recall buying Boz Scaggs' first album there ( worth it just for 'Loan Me A Dime' ).

I agree about big stores in general. However, the Virgin in Picadilly did have a good listening system where you swiped the CDs bar codes on the listening stand and listened to a few tracks. Smaller shops are ( or used to be ) far more satisfying than the big megastores in most cases, partly because the bigger stores are obliged to carry big stocks of everything. However, I do recall the big Amoeba stores in San Franscisco being like a treasure trove. Are they still there?

The HMV in Oxford St wasn't bad last time I was there and the jazz section staff at least seemed to be interested in the music. I do miss the sometimes sneering and patronising approach of some smaller, specialist record shops ( a bit like in High Fidelity). Mole Jazz used to be a bit like that sometimes and the old Dobells shop in London was well known for customer abuse.

[Big Beat Steve]

I do miss the sometimes sneering and patronising approach of some smaller, specialist record shops ( a bit like in High Fidelity). Mole Jazz used to be a bit like that sometimes and the old Dobells shop in London was well known for customer abuse.

Can't say so. My trips to Mole Jazz (between 1992 and 2000) were always exceptional not only in what I found there but also in the way the staff were helpful and obliging (to the extent possible at all).

Dobell's brings back fond memories to when I was there in 1975 to 1977 during 2-week stays there while still in high school. I found the staff (both in the Jazz and the "Folk" store, one of them must have been Doug Dobell himself) always very helpful and above all patient with the young budding collector that I was, rummaging through the discs for hours on end and ending up with picking 2 or 3 LP's (from my tight 15 to 17 year-old schoolboy budget). I can't have been their best customer, and the questions I asked cannot always have been the most enlightened either (as I was really just getting started) but I was always treated with utter courtesy (OK, maybe ol' man Dobell figured I wasn't that clueless as I literally jumped on that Cyril Davies LP on the Folklore label I discovered there - a Dobell production, as I found out a bit later - and there cannot have been many school kids from abroad buying THAT one ). At any rate, I often wished I'd been able to spend much more there. It was too bad I never made it back to London until 1992, and I remember my disappointment at finding out Dobell's was long gone by then.

Anyway, on record stores in general, what's been said above is what happened here too. Our equivalent of Virgin or Tower used to have good stocks in the jazz and blues departments up until the late 90s but everything has been going downhill fast ever since. Some stores got bigger but "niche" departments got smaller and smaller. Maybe they just figured they needed not bother anymore after another independent local record store that used to stock a lot of major AND minor labels (and had a firm reputation as #1 for all jazz/blues/rock collectors) went belly-up around 2000-2001. Apart from the "Special Jazz Offers" bins in one secondhand record store and the local glance at the local 2001 shop my local record/CD buying in brick-and-mortar shops has virtually stopped years ago. Sadly ....

Edited June 17, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[BillF]

I do miss the sometimes sneering and patronising approach of some smaller, specialist record shops ( a bit like in High Fidelity). Mole Jazz used to be a bit like that sometimes and the old Dobells shop in London was well known for customer abuse.

Can't say so. My trips to Mole Jazz (between 1992 and 2000) were always exceptional not only in what I found there but also in the way the staff were helpful and obliging (to the extent possible at all).

Dobell's brings back fond memories to when I was there in 1975 to 1977 during 2-week stays there while still in high school. I found the staff (both in the Jazz and the "Folk" store, one of them must have been Doug Dobell himself) always very helpful and above all patient with the young budding collector that I was, rummaging through the discs for hours on end and ending up with picking 2 or 3 LP's (from my tight 15 to 17 year-old schoolboy budget). I can't have been their best customer, and the questions I asked cannot always have been the most enlightened either (as I was really just getting started) but I was always treated with utter courtesy (OK, maybe ol' man Dobell figured I wasn't that clueless as I literally jumped on that Cyril Davies LP on the Folklore label I discovered there - a Dobell production, as I found out a bit later - and there cannot have been many school kids from abroad buying THAT one ). At any rate, I often wished I'd been able to spend much more there. It was too bad I never made it back to London until 1992, and I remember my disappointment at finding out Dobell's was long gone by then.

Anyway, on record stores in general, what's been said above is what happened here too. Our equivalent of Virgin or Tower used to have good stocks in the jazz and blues departments up until the late 90s but everything has been going downhill fast ever since. Some stores got bigger but "niche" departments got smaller and smaller. Maybe they just figured they needed not bother anymore after another independent local record store that used to stock a lot of major AND minor labels (and had a firm reputation as #1 for all jazz/blues/rock collectors) went belly-up around 2000-2001. Apart from the "Special Jazz Offers" bins in one secondhand record store and the local glance at the local 2001 shop my local record/CD buying in brick-and-mortar shops has virtually stopped years ago. Sadly ....

Nice to be hearing again about Mole - the late joint proprietor, Ed Dipple, was an old friend of mine - and Dobell's, about which the stories were legion; e.g. Roland Kirk leaning on the counter, surrounded by admiring fans, demanding to hear record after record by Fats Waller. Just as the real Londoner, a Cockney, was said to have been born "within the sound of Bow Bells", the true hipster was said to live in a pad "within the sound of Dobell's"; i.e. in the decrepit property called "the buildings" in which the store was located.

[Jazzjet]

I guess it all comes down to individual experiences. Most of the time I enjoyed shopping at Mole but occasionally it was a bit sniffy, particularly when asking for something that was perhaps seen as a bit 'popular'. It depended on who served you.

As for Dobell's, my experience was a bit earlier as a schoolboy. The good thing was you could take LPs into the record booth and play them on turntables that must have been featured in the Flintstones. The arm of the turntable must have weighed a ton and did unmentionable damage to the record. If you didn't buy it - the norm in my case - it just went back into stock for some poor mug to buy it next time. And does anyone remember the second hand basement, run by John Kendall I think. It was like a small cave, complete with damp, but I picked up some great bargains there.

My favourite, however, was Ray's Jazz ( formerly Collett's ) which has now migrated to be Rays Jazz at Foyles. Service was usually friendly and helpful and I'll always remember a small, bearded Scottish guy who was a regular customer and had a fantastic technique of flicking through the album display racks at lightning speed. Probably gave up when CDs came in.

[Big Beat Steve]

I guess it all comes down to individual experiences. Most of the time I enjoyed shopping at Mole but occasionally it was a bit sniffy, particularly when asking for something that was perhaps seen as a bit 'popular'. ...

See ... what you describe as being sniffy happened to a friend of mine at Ray's when she had picked a (rather rambunctious) R&B/R'n'R compilation from their downstairs "Blues & Roots dept." and asked to listen in (briefly) just to make sure ... The staff upstairs visibly winced at every note coming from the speakers. And I'd had slightly less extreme reactions once or twice before. But ... hey, no need to sneer at what you stock yourselves in your own (specialist) store, gents! :D

So as you can see you're right about individual experiences.

As for Dobell's, I remember in '75 to '77 there were 2 shops within a few steps from each other (though I seem to remember one was billed the "Jazz" shop and one the "Folk" shop, even though the selection they stocked really overlapped), and one or both seem to have been a sort of "downstairs" shop. Cramped, but full of goodies!

Edited June 17, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[BillF]

I guess it all comes down to individual experiences. Most of the time I enjoyed shopping at Mole but occasionally it was a bit sniffy, particularly when asking for something that was perhaps seen as a bit 'popular'. It depended on who served you.

As for Dobell's, my experience was a bit earlier as a schoolboy. The good thing was you could take LPs into the record booth and play them on turntables that must have been featured in the Flintstones. The arm of the turntable must have weighed a ton and did unmentionable damage to the record. If you didn't buy it - the norm in my case - it just went back into stock for some poor mug to buy it next time. And does anyone remember the second hand basement, run by John Kendall I think. It was like a small cave, complete with damp, but I picked up some great bargains there.

My favourite, however, was Ray's Jazz ( formerly Collett's ) which has now migrated to be Rays Jazz at Foyles. Service was usually friendly and helpful and I'll always remember a small, bearded Scottish guy who was a regular customer and had a fantastic technique of flicking through the album display racks at lightning speed. Probably gave up when CDs came in.

I also used to go into Dobell's booths as a schoolboy - to plays 78s!! - Pinetop Smith and Meade Lux Lewis in 1957, IIRC!

At a later stage I was a regular visitor to Johnny Kendall's grotto, which you so accurately describe. Quite a few of his offerings are still on my shelves and, what with the dampness and passage of years, smell a bit strange

Edited June 17, 2008 by BillF

[7/4]

I haven't been to either of the Virgin stores in NYC for a few years...too expensive.

.

[kh1958]

I will miss the store. Most of the employees may have been surly (except for the friendly African fellow in the World music section), the store may have been overly noisy and obnoxious, but they had a reasonably deep catalogue, even if often too pricey. There usually seemed to be lots of stuff on sale, though. Plus, there's no substitute for browsing, which is becoming extinct, especially on a multi-genre basis. Now there's nothing left in the city but the specialty stores. And if a megastore located in the area with perhaps the heaviest foot traffic in the United States can't survive, can the specialty stores like the Jazz Record Center, Academy and Downtown Music Gallery continue to exist?

[JSngry]

How can a CD store that's THAT big, suck SO bad????????????

Prolonged virginity can make shit get really weird, doncha' know...

[7/4]

And if a megastore located in the area with perhaps the heaviest foot traffic in the United States can't survive, can the specialty stores like the Jazz Record Center, Academy and Downtown Music Gallery continue to exist?

The price of real estate in NYC has been out of control for a while.

[kh1958]

One of the Virgin stores closed here in Dallas a few years ago.

Another is located in a mall on the outskirts not far from D/FW airport.

Like it's been said here - the prices were list and higher,

the selection was far too mainstream (answer to why it can be so big and still suck)

and, often, the staff just couldn't be bothered.

Don't know what Branson is like these days, but I tend not to blame him.

Soft spot here 'cause during my high school days in the 70's,

he and a secretary used to send personal letters accompanying

LP promos that nearly always were encouragements directed

towards seeking out new music and for my regular radio program.

Still have them plus the original small catalogs from their old UK location

before opening the branch in the US.

Places like the O-Board are the new record counter these days!

The stores in Dallas were (does the one in Grapevine still exist?) very modest in size compared to the one in Times Square.

[Noj]

I was bummed when the Virgin near my home closed. It was five minutes away, and I was almost always the only person lurking in the jazz section. I could literally plan purchases several in advance, knowing that no one else was going to buy what I planned to buy. With that in mind, it wasn't all that surprising that it shut down.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I guess it all comes down to individual experiences. Most of the time I enjoyed shopping at Mole but occasionally it was a bit sniffy, particularly when asking for something that was perhaps seen as a bit 'popular'. ...

See ... what you describe as being sniffy happened to a friend of mine at Ray's when she had picked a (rather rambunctious) R&B/R'n'R compilation from their downstairs "Blues & Roots dept." and asked to listen in (briefly) just to make sure ... The staff upstairs visibly winced at every note coming from the speakers. And I'd had slightly less extreme reactions once or twice before. But ... hey, no need to sneer at what you stock yourselves in your own (specialist) store, gents! :D

So as you can see you're right about individual experiences.

As for Dobell's, I remember in '75 to '77 there were 2 shops within a few steps from each other (though I seem to remember one was billed the "Jazz" shop and one the "Folk" shop, even though the selection they stocked really overlapped), and one or both seem to have been a sort of "downstairs" shop. Cramped, but full of goodies!

I never bothered to listen to anything in Mole. I used to in Dobells - I liked the listening booths. My mate and I wrote "Fred Jackson is the world's greatest jazz musician of all time" just under where someone had written the same about Charlie Parker. But someone on the staff must have cleaned it off (but not the Bird graf), cos it wasn't there next time. So there was some snobbery over grafitti

MG

[sidewinder]

I think that's unfair.

Well - each to his own but I have been to that very Times Square store and found it ridiculously over-priced, as other posters mentioned. That was back in the day when Mr Branson still owned the franchise.

Pretty well everywhere else I went to in NYC had better selection and pricing. I would say the same thing about the LA store on Sunset too, where the comparison with Tower (at the time) was laughable. At least in terms of selection of jazz CDs.

Virgin were at their peak in the 1970s IMO but lost it thereafter. Afraid I never frequented the place in the 70s and early 80s and if so I might have a better opinion.

On the plus side though - at least they did the 'Virgin Venture' label with Lester Bowie's Brass Fantasy, Ichy Fingers and a few other jazz groups, for which is due.

Edited June 17, 2008 by sidewinder

[sidewinder]

I also used to go into Dobell's booths as a schoolboy

Ah - Dobells ! I vaguely remember it but it closed up around the time I started frequenting the London stores.

Funnily enough I have a few test pressings from Dobells '77' label which were bought at a gobsmacking £1 each from Mole !

Edited June 17, 2008 by sidewinder

[sidewinder]

I do miss the sometimes sneering and patronising approach of some smaller, specialist record shops ( a bit like in High Fidelity). Mole Jazz used to be a bit like that sometimes and the old Dobells shop in London was well known for customer abuse.

Ain't that the truth !

Edited June 17, 2008 by sidewinder

[BillF]

I never bothered to listen to anything in Mole. I used to in Dobells - I liked the listening booths. My mate and I wrote "Fred Jackson is the world's greatest jazz musician of all time" just under where someone had written the same about Charlie Parker. But someone on the staff must have cleaned it off (but not the Bird graf), cos it wasn't there next time. So there was some snobbery over grafitti

Yes, Dobell's booths had a very specialized line in grafitti. Two I remember are: "Roland Kirk has two mouths" and "Gladys Pringle:" (or some such name) "best white entertainer ever" plus London suburban phone number.

[Jazzjet]

I never bothered to listen to anything in Mole. I used to in Dobells - I liked the listening booths. My mate and I wrote "Fred Jackson is the world's greatest jazz musician of all time" just under where someone had written the same about Charlie Parker. But someone on the staff must have cleaned it off (but not the Bird graf), cos it wasn't there next time. So there was some snobbery over grafitti

Yes, Dobell's booths had a very specialized line in grafitti. Two I remember are: "Roland Kirk has two mouths" and "Gladys Pringle:" (or some such name) "best white entertainer ever" plus London suburban phone number.

Not the Gladys Pringle?

[7/4]

I never bothered to listen to anything in Mole. I used to in Dobells - I liked the listening booths. My mate and I wrote "Fred Jackson is the world's greatest jazz musician of all time" just under where someone had written the same about Charlie Parker. But someone on the staff must have cleaned it off (but not the Bird graf), cos it wasn't there next time. So there was some snobbery over grafitti

Yes, Dobell's booths had a very specialized line in grafitti. Two I remember are: "Roland Kirk has two mouths" and "Gladys Pringle:" (or some such name) "best white entertainer ever" plus London suburban phone number.

Not the Gladys Pringle?

Of the London Pringles?