The Agree/Disagree Thread - Jazz

[BeBop]

From Mojo magazine, December 2007:

Joe Zawinul was the most important European in the history of jazz.

Agree? Disagree?

[Bright Moments]

disagree

[Van Basten II]

It reminds me why i don't buy Mojo anymore !

[BeBop]

Okay, if not Zawinul, who?

(Just playing devil's advocate here.)

[Van Basten II]

Django would be the first name that comes out of my head

[BeBop]

But look at the range of stuff Zawinul did - Miles, Cannon, Weather Report, Syndicate, Ben Webster, Dinah...

[Van Basten II]

Next question...

[Rooster_Ties]

Maybe against my better judgment, I'll post the first one I thought of (quoted in full)...

Most of my favorite (Woody) Shaw performances are as sideman. His "leader" dates always disappointed with the one exception of "Stepping Stones".

Love you madly, Chuck.

[Brad]

But look at the range of stuff Zawinul did - Miles, Cannon, Weather Report, Syndicate, Ben Webster, Dinah...

Never moved me. Total disagree.

[Van Basten II]

I would argue though that because an artist does not move you personally , it does not mean that the guy is irrelevant. Can't really say i took a lot of time to listen to Fats Waller or any people from thast era, it does not mean that their contribution is worth zilch.

At a certain point, you have to separate your feelings from the impact this person had on others.

[7/4]

Okay, if not Zawinul, who?

Derek Bailey or Allan Holdsworth.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Okay, if not Zawinul, who?

Adolphe Sax

MG

[mikeweil]

Adolphe Sax

... the fact aside that Sax was not a jazz musician, an excellent choice!

Edited June 15, 2008 by mikeweil

[Big Beat Steve]

But look at the range of stuff Zawinul did - Miles, Cannon, Weather Report, Syndicate, Ben Webster, Dinah...

Not a valid argument.

1) Does an importan European have to be an expatriate living in the USA to become "the most important European jazzman"? By the time he has settled down permanently in the U.S. (and in its jazz scne) he is no long a "European" jazz musician but an "American" jazzman who happens to be of European descent. Did Zawinul bring a specifically European touch to U.S. jazz throughout his works there?

2) The guys you name (with the exception of Ben Webster et al., and this was a minor occurrence overall) cover only a part of jazz that started with fusion, etc. There WAS jazz (probably MAJOR jazz, style-wise) BEFORE fusion. Can a Johny-come-lately be a MAJOR factor in the ENTIRE history of jazz? (Seems to be one of the problems with forums like this where too many just don't go back beyond Trane in their awareness of jazz)

Therefore I'd also vote for Django.

Next up, how about Lars Gullin?

Or any of the major European Free Jazz musicians (Dauner, Brötzmann, etc.) (as an example of Europeans becoming a dominating and therefore pacesetting stylistic factor in a particular stream of jazz)

(BTW; I've never dug Free Jazz but I acknowledge its importance within the history of jazz, and hence Europeans' contributions - that much for Van Basten's reminder to look beyond one's own tastes )

[JohnS]

Lars Gullin comes to mind first.

[BillF]

Adolphe Sax

... the fact aside that Sax was not a jazz musician, an excellent choice!

Who was it who said, "Adolphe Sax gave the saxophone a name, but Lester Young gave it a sound"?

[BillF]

Django would be the first name that comes out of my head

Despite my soft spot for Victor Feldman, I think I'd have to go along with the Django judgement. Let's not mention Andre Hodeir, Leonard Feather, etc ....

[JSngry]

Django's most immediate influence was in the 20th century. Zawinul's may prove to be in the 21st. The cat found a way put a lot of things different together organically and artistically (ok, for all you folk with art-o-phobia, musically), and if that ain't the way the world is going, then I don't know what is.

Myself, I dig Django more than I feel him. Such is not the case with Zawinul. But that's just me.

[marcello]

Django's continuing influence, even in the 21st centuary gets my vote but Joe Z's writing for WR, and his keyboard style has a smaller influence just because of the number of musicians that play his kind of instrument and music. I've got to say that I always thought that a WR concert contained about 20 minuties of thrills ( on a good night) and 60 minutes of jerking off. Maybe I just caught them on off nights tha four times I saw them with four different line ups.

I just got a live set from someone from 1973, that's hard to listen to with without giving them a lot of leeway for being unique for the times.

Here's a photo that I took of Al Johnson in 1976/77?:

One of the crazies things I've seen posted here was when YouMustBe said that Wayne was borderline mentally retarded!

I'm not saying he's right or wrong but, that's something different!

Edited June 15, 2008 by marcello

[JSngry]

Django's continuing influence, even in the 21st centuary gets my vote but Joe Z's writing for WR, and his keyboard style has a smaller influence just because of the number of musicians that play his kind of instrument and music.

Ah, but then there's the Zawinul Syndicate, which, after a rough start, made some very organic & successful pan-global improvisation-centric music. I'm already hearing the influence pop up in some "advanced" dance records, the kind of things that get made about 5-6 years before they hit the mainstream... what effect it's having on "jazz", I can't say, but really, does it matter any more? Jazz has (mostly) allowed itself to become codified to the point of being a "repertoire" music in one sense or another, so anything that's not already been done ain't gonna get done in that house anymore.

For the most part.

[7/4]

One of the crazies things I've seen posted here was when YouMustBe said that Wayne was borderline mentally retarded!

I'm not saying he's right or wrong but, that's something different!

It's certainly a strange comment. I wonder in what way...he doesn't seem handicapped enough to damage his musical skills.

[JSngry]

I think he meant that Wayne was just "crazy", and that's far from a unique observation.

I just wish I could be that kind of crazy...

[GA Russell]

I remember once reading that Barney Kessel would frequently argue that whatever it was that Django played, it wasn't jazz. But the article I am referring to didn't mention what it is/was about jazz that Kessel felt that Django did not incorporate.

If we are going to limit the discussion to Europeans who did not relocate to the USA, how about Francy Boland?

[BillF]

I remember once reading that Barney Kessel would frequently argue that whatever it was that Django played, it wasn't jazz. But the article I am referring to didn't mention what it is/was about jazz that Kessel felt that Django did not incorporate.

If we are going to limit the discussion to Europeans who did not relocate to the USA, how about Francy Boland?

I'll put in for Tubby Hayes.

[DukeCity]

1) Does an importan European have to be an expatriate living in the USA to become "the most important European jazzman"? By the time he has settled down permanently in the U.S. (and in its jazz scne) he is no long a "European" jazz musician but an "American" jazzman who happens to be of European descent. Did Zawinul bring a specifically European touch to U.S. jazz throughout his works there?

Does that mean that American jazz musicians are no longer American when they settle permanently in Europe? If so, then we can put Sidney Bechet, Kenny Clarke and others on the list as "European" jazzmen who happen to be of American descent.