Al Green - Lay It Down

[Jim Alfredson]

"Fun"? That's fair enough if you have a lot of the money but Jim, that's 39 out of 40-- or, let's be honest, 399 out of 400 people, at best, who will never even download an excellent, and free, Organissimo mp3 because they're stuck on some nostalgia, brand loyalty trip.

What's life without a bit of a challenge?

I seriously doubt that people are missing out on organissimo because of this recording. That's a self-defeating attitude.

You own a few dozen Jimmy Smith sides, as have I over the years, because it was a different era. Do you know-- and I say this rhetorically, for those who might not have thought about it before-- that there are more jazz musicians, and more jazz records now than at the peak of the musics popularity? When you consider how many of those were "just" bandmen, it's pretty staggering. The difference being, instead of Jimmy Smith making dozens, and Freddie Roach or Johnny Hammond Smith maybe a single dozen sides, it's a half a jillion musicians, all of them "artists," making two jillion sides. Al Green had his fucking days, PLENTY of them, and a fair number of them were great. It's over, Johnny, and artists of many kinds are near-starved for attention because x% of the media is automatically signed on to this: BIN FILLER.

The same can be said for all genres of music, not just jazz. The amount of "records" being released every week is staggering. Anybody and everybody can make a CD now. That is why boards such as these serve a purpose, though frankly I don't think we, as a community, have fully taken advantage of that yet. There is still too much talk about the old stuff and not enough about the new, imo. Contrary to the contrarians, there is good jazz, yes even great jazz being made. It's just buried under all the other stuff.

Does that mean Al Green shouldn't make CDs? What Al Green does has no bearing on the rest of it; he has a name, of course he's going to get covered. If it wasn't him, it would be someone else. I agree that there a hundreds of musicians more deserving of press, but that will never change.

And the record is still fun!

Also, I didn't want to get into this but since Goldberg did the research, the place of Al Green in the WHITE pantheon is greater, or rather more exclusive, than that same place he holds in the black cultural pantheon.

Tell that to the predominately black audience who came to see him back in 1995 at an outdoor music festival on the campus of Michigan State University. That was a great show and the audience was at least 90% black.

No, there's nothing "wrong" with enjoying a perfectly enjoyable, TOTALLY vacuous Al Green record but in a world of many other options, not all of them the very easiest (see those free mp3s, above), why should we try so hard to find the glimmers?

Again, that's what this forum should be about; finding new music, specifically jazz, worthy of listening and discussing. The jazz press mainly fails at that. So does NPR. We have the independent DJs like Lazaro and ghost of miles, and then we have forums such as this.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

OK, crossing over in the 1950s and early 1960s usually meant artistic compromises that could alienate you from core chitlin' circuit audiences. But that has not really been the case since the mid-1960s.

I think several people could be mentioned. Let's try Tyrone Davis for a start.

MG

[John L]

OK, crossing over in the 1950s and early 1960s usually meant artistic compromises that could alienate you from core chitlin' circuit audiences. But that has not really been the case since the mid-1960s.

I think several people could be mentioned. Let's try Tyrone Davis for a start.

MG

MG: What exactly do you mean by citing Tyrone Davis? Are you emphasizing the fact that many great black singers after the mid-1960s still did not cross over much to white audiences? Certainly, that is true. My point was something like the converse. Particularly after the mid-1960s, I was questioning the idea that poularity among white audiences could give an artist a stigma in the black community, particularly if the crossover did not involve any artistic compromise. Maybe that is not what is being argued here. But I was just asking for a clarification. If Al Green has lost his "street cred" in the black community, when, how, and why?

[Shawn]

If Al Green has lost his "street cred" in the black community, when, how, and why?

My question is why exactly does it even matter? I listen to music because I enjoy it, I could care less about it's "street cred". I can't see someone of Al's age meaning a thing to anyone young enough to have "street cred" themselves. I don't tend to break down music along racial lines though, it's not something that's important to me. But that's of course my opinion.

[Free For All]

If Al Green has lost his "street cred" in the black community, when, how, and why?

My question is why exactly does it even matter? I listen to music because I enjoy it, I could care less about it's "street cred". I can't see someone of Al's age meaning a thing to anyone young enough to have "street cred" themselves. I don't tend to break down music along racial lines though, it's not something that's important to me. But that's of course my opinion.

I just checked my street cred and turns out I owe about $1400.00 plus late charges/penalties.

[Alexander]

Also, I didn't want to get into this but since Goldberg did the research, the place of Al Green in the WHITE pantheon is greater, or rather more exclusive, than that same place he holds in the black cultural pantheon.

Tell that to the predominately black audience who came to see him back in 1995 at an outdoor music festival on the campus of Michigan State University. That was a great show and the audience was at least 90% black.

Same is true of Green's performance at the Freihofer Jazz Festival last summer. The VAST majority of that audience was black. I was one of the very few white folks that I saw there...

[Free For All]

I was one of the very few white folks that I saw there...

Maybe you just weren't looking hard enough?

[John L]

I don't know what it's like where you live El-John but go to a black record store sometime, if you can find one, or listen to black radio, if yo have it available. Should you be on or travel to locales still on the r&b/gospel chitlin' circuit, that might be instructive too. Al Green still has SOME cred, sure, but it's nowhere as singular or monolithic as the discussion of the new record would suggest.

I don't know anybody who declares Al Green "singular and monolithic" beyond his status as a major original figure in R&B who helped keep Southern Soul alive in the 70s through a slicker but still down home gritty approach. Actually, I take that back. I am aware of one person who is guilty of excessive Al Green worship: Robert Christgau. He actually argues that Green towers above all other male soul singers, while trashing people like Sam Cooke and Johnnie Taylor. But Christgau is always 100% full of shit when it comes to anything even resembling R&B. So that doesn't count.

As far as the Chitlin' Circuit is concerned, what would it be today without "Love and Happiness?" The over-40 black record store that I often go to has a very large Al Grits section.

Speaking of Sam Cooke, Gerald Alston's recent tribute album is really a snooze and a half. At least Al Green is trying to do something 21st-century with original music. At least give him credit for that. As for George Jackson, I love a number of his songs. But do we really need more versions of them now?

Edited July 1, 2008 by John L

[John L]

If Al Green has lost his "street cred" in the black community, when, how, and why?

My question is why exactly does it even matter? I listen to music because I enjoy it, I could care less about it's "street cred". I can't see someone of Al's age meaning a thing to anyone young enough to have "street cred" themselves. I don't tend to break down music along racial lines though, it's not something that's important to me. But that's of course my opinion.

The question pertains to the social context of the music. Some of us find that interesting.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

If Al Green has lost his "street cred" in the black community, when, how, and why?

My question is why exactly does it even matter? I listen to music because I enjoy it, I could care less about it's "street cred". I can't see someone of Al's age meaning a thing to anyone young enough to have "street cred" themselves. I don't tend to break down music along racial lines though, it's not something that's important to me. But that's of course my opinion.

The question pertains to the social context of the music. Some of us find that interesting.

Right with you there, John!

MG

[paul secor]

If Al Green has lost his "street cred" in the black community, when, how, and why?

My question is why exactly does it even matter? I listen to music because I enjoy it, I could care less about it's "street cred". I can't see someone of Al's age meaning a thing to anyone young enough to have "street cred" themselves. I don't tend to break down music along racial lines though, it's not something that's important to me. But that's of course my opinion.

The question pertains to the social context of the music. Some of us find that interesting.

Right with you there, John!

MG

The "street cred" thing opens up a real can of worms. Who defines it? Are we talking about older or younger people? What age people buy or download music? How can Chauncey, MG, or anyone else be sure of all this? Does popularity have a correlation with quality?

In the 60's and 70's, I used to buy blues and soul 45s from mom & pop record stores in a couple of black communities. It was interesting to see what I bought, as opposed to what people from those communities bought. There was overlap. But in the end, I bought what I liked, not what someone else liked.

edit - I do realize that what I bought there was determined by what the black community wanted to hear. I also realize that none of this shit is simple.

I used to know a guy who had a theory that whatever sold best - interestingly, he only applied his theory to music made and bought by black folks - was the best. I wrote him off as a theorist - if not as an acquaintance/friend - shortly after he told me that.

Another question - do sociologists have musical tastes worth paying attention to?

Edited July 1, 2008 by paul secor

[Soulstation1]

al green has "bedroom cred"

[Shawn]

al green has "bedroom cred"

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

al green has "bedroom cred"

True. So has Barry White.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Now, if you want to offer that black popular music allows almost no such parallels (and no, really, no defense of post-1982 Stevie is possible, so don't even try), that too is something to discuss.

Looks like a good discussion - why don't you start a thread about that?

I would but I've been thinking so much about organ records with horns but no guitars that my brain's gone soft and furry.

MG

[paul secor]

Long Paul: Chauncey isn't sure but she does acknowledge the fields of historiography, anthropology, demographics, etc. At least SOME movement that way is a vast step beyond the I-Like-It!!! versus It-Sucks!!! ping-pong, yes? Both expressions are fine, of course, but when the candyasses start getting "feelings" about it... what is that about it?

The first step if for ALL of you (generally) to stop thinking, listening, shopping, reading, where possible, in an ethnocentric manner. There are limits, of course, but even trying to see, and hear, it from other regional/local/age/"faith" (if we want to talk the Black Church Music) is, again, a huge step forward.

I think Al is spent as an artist (songwriter) and the new settings not new enough to justify their existence. Compare, if you will, to Neil Young.

Now, if you want to offer that black popular music allows almost no such parallels (and no, really, no defense of post-1982 Stevie is possible, so don't even try), that too is something to discuss.

In a world of many possible choices, it's just a plain FACT there is very little reason to choose this new Al Green record; explore the vast real of hip-hop (cf. the ?uestlove connection) or the even vaster musics of the past, why the fuck not?

El-John: The trouble with Geralds-- and the Malaco sound in general, to our ears-- doesn't make Al's drivel even better; I don't think, by the way, that any sorta

"opera" argument holds here, like it doesn't matter the words/form so much but it SOUNDS swell. It sounds uptight, and tired, where it used to soar. That's OK-- there are lots of other things to listen to.

Like Blue Magic?

Believe it or not, among other Afro sides, yes.

Chaunc - Al Green never was one of my favs, even back in the day - tho for some reason I have quite a few of his records - wonder why that is? I actually have no interest in his latest, but just wanted to bring up the concepts of socio-anthro-historical points of view and perhaps have them discussed. You perhaps have begun that, but there's surely more to be said. All of that is more complex than I can deal with, either in thought or in writing, so perhaps others will take up the torch.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Chaunc - Al Green never was one of my favs, even back in the day - tho for some reason I have quite a few of his records - wonder why that is? I actually have no interest in his latest, but just wanted to bring up the concepts of socio-anthro-historical points of view and perhaps have them discussed. You perhaps have begun that, but there's surely more to be said. All of that is more complex than I can deal with, either in thought or in writing, so perhaps others will take up the torch.

And YOU'VE been racking your brains about the Quotations

Where's the weather thread? That's all I'm good for.

MG

[paul secor]

Chaunc - Al Green never was one of my favs, even back in the day - tho for some reason I have quite a few of his records - wonder why that is? I actually have no interest in his latest, but just wanted to bring up the concepts of socio-anthro-historical points of view and perhaps have them discussed. You perhaps have begun that, but there's surely more to be said. All of that is more complex than I can deal with, either in thought or in writing, so perhaps others will take up the torch.

And YOU'VE been racking your brains about the Quotations

Where's the weather thread? That's all I'm good for.

MG

That one's beyond me today.

[7/4]

Now Jim's a nicer man than I am woman-- which is great, really, we wouldn't all be here if it weren't so! I do think that the lockstep media attention-- and I know that given towards Al Green is relatively slight compared to never-worthy hokum like Emmylou Harris (bad folkie, worse "country" singer) or the sham profits (no misspelling) of White Media self-examination (sic), Radiohead. And, loathesome as Emmylou is, she's but an anthill compared to the Big Movie & Yooge Sports Shuck. But still, in the limited Adult Music market, the mass feeling that that crap is "enough" does, I feel, cut into Organissimo attention, Allen Lowe attention, etc. The future of music is MUCH more exciting if we could get, say, 190 articles/broadcasts on Al Green and even 10 on O or Lowe; that the number isn't even 199 to 1 says it all.

Clem...

Edited July 1, 2008 by 7/4