Return To Forever

[Hot Ptah]

There are people who really liked, and still like, the electric Return to Forever. I have met some recently. They are real jazz lovers who just find something in the group. It's not impossible to do so.

I have listened to their albums again after not hearing them for decades. I was struck by how Where Have I Known You Before and No Mystery seemed quite listenable. They are nowhere near my stack of all-time favorite albums, but they are not laughable disasters either.

I found Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy to sound rather harsh and cold, and Romantic Warrior to be nearly unlistenable. Romantic Warrior is where the negative cliches about RTF are true, I think.

I think that Corea never found an electric guitarist who could play what would have been ideal for the group. Neither Connors or DiMeola were good enough to act as equal participants with Corea and Clarke. I thought so in 1976 and 1977 when I saw the group with DiMeola live.

I think that the 1970s fans of RTF were the same people who were getting high to Yes and King Crimson. There were lots of them back then.

[JohnS]

I saw the electric RTF. The stage was decked out in scientology banners! Any connection here with the pixie-ass tune tiltes?

[Hot Ptah]

I saw the electric RTF. The stage was decked out in scientology banners! Any connection here with the pixie-ass tune tiltes?

Corea has never hidden his membership in Scientology. I remember that when RTF was big in the 1970s, they gave Down Beat an interview in which all of the members of the group said that Scientology had helped them solve their problems and play better together as a group--I'm summarizing longer quotes very quickly. I do not know if anyone other than Corea is a Scientologist today.

It's not a secret that some of Corea's song titles over the years have referred to Scientology.

[Daniel A]

There's a huge difference between the albums by the group RTF and the earlier ECM album of the same name. That album and "Light as a Feather" are in another league, in parts thanks to Joe Farrell. Even trane fanatic might find something to enjoy there.

[rostasi]

Doesn't this LP's cover - made back in about '70 -

have something to do with the 'tology goons?

Isn't there some kind of significance with the letters and triangle?

[7/4]

Doesn't this LP's cover - made back in about '70 -

have something to do with the 'tology goons?

Isn't there some kind of significance with the letters and triangle?

My copy is misfiled, so I can't find it, but I think there's an explanation in the liner notes.

[Harold_Z]

I thought "original" RTF was the amazing ECM album's line-up (Farrell, Clarke, Airto, plus Flora Purim) - still a fresh and lovely album, in my opinion. Never cared for later RTF, though I'm growing to like WR quite a bit (early WR, that is - just about the albums mentioned above are what I own so far).

imho, The two lps with Airto, Flora, Joe were great. After that ...well, it was chops city, if that's what you dug, but it didn't float my boat. I saw them live several times during both periods. I have mixed feelings about Chick. He's obviously a gifted player, but sometimes he plays so much bullshit, gets so "cute", plays so many games with the drummer (who has to react - after all, Chick is the leader) that I just get fed up.

[Chuck Nessa]

Close to my reaction. I never replaced the first couple of RtF lps.

[Kari S]

Al "Beard" DiMeola can kiss my Axe.

[Hot Ptah]

Doesn't this LP's cover - made back in about '70 -

have something to do with the 'tology goons?

Isn't there some kind of significance with the letters and triangle?

My copy is misfiled, so I can't find it, but I think there's an explanation in the liner notes.

I found my vinyl copy of this album. There is an explanation of the front cover art on the back of the album cover. Corea writes that everything on the front cover has some significant meaning in Scientology. It is written without conventional word spacing or punctuation, in a triangle shaped "page within the page", so it is not easy to read or follow if you try to skim it, as I did today.

[rostasi]

Wikipedia comes thru again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#A...d_KRC_triangles

[Hot Ptah]

Wikipedia comes thru again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#A...d_KRC_triangles

Chick writes something like that, only longer, within a nearly unreadable triangle format.

[rostasi]

Chick writes something like that, only longer, within a nearly unreadable triangle format.

To me, it's almost all unreadable...so much for the "C" part of the triad

[7/4]

dude, how's your tone scale today?

.

[rostasi]

dude, how's your tone scale today?

I used some ointment

and now you can hardly see it!

[7/4]

right on and solid!

.

[Guy Berger]

I think that the 1970s fans of RTF were the same people who were getting high to Yes and King Crimson. There were lots of them back then.

I like Yes and KC a lot more than the post-Hymn RtF. Perhaps it is just framing.

Guy

[Guy Berger]

"worse than Weather Report"

I dunno, at times, I can't believe this is really one of Wayne Shorter's projects. Some tracks heavily border on smooth jazz-lite. Heard all the raves, went to Tower back in the day and was surprised by how unappealing Heavy Weather was, at least, to these ears.

It's a serious mistake to judge this group by that album.

Guy

[7/4]

I think that the 1970s fans of RTF were the same people who were getting high to Yes and King Crimson. There were lots of them back then.

I like Yes and KC a lot more than the post-Hymn RtF. Perhaps it is just framing.

Guy

Same here. A hell of a lot more.

[Aurorawolf]

I can't believe the ignorance shown in these posts! Don't knock something you don't know anything about. You people call yourselves musicians or jazz aficionados? I was a straight jazz fan for many years until I became acquainted with Al Di Meola's music. Now I seldom listen to anything else. I will admit it took me a little while to understand what jazz-rock-fusion is, but now I'm totally hooked. I suggest you spend some time really listening to RTF and also some of Al's recordings.

BTW, last year's RTF tour went over big, not only in this country, but all over Europe. If some of you hadn't had your heads buried in the sand, you wouldn't have missed the great reviews. Jazz truly is intellectual music. But fusion goes beyond intellectual into the realm of spirituality. ADM has come a long way since the 1970s RTF. I suggest instead of knocking his music, you open your minds and educate yourselves. Until any of you can play this well, I think you should hang up your instruments. Not only is he a master guitarist, but also an accomplished composer.

Sorry for the rant, but I can't let anyone get by with dissing one of the most talented and technically-proficient musicians in the world. (And it isn't just me who believes that.)

Return to Forever Returns (DVD coming soon)

(Al Di Meola and Jaco Pastorius)

He and Carmen (Al Di Meola & Hungarian flutist, Eszter Horgas)

Al Di and Roman Miroshnichenko

Edited March 23, 2009 by Aurorawolf

[Jim Alfredson]

Ha! The post above is classic.

Anyway... I found this thread because I just picked up the remaster of Romantic Warrior in the cut-out bin tonight. I think RTF of this period might be the ELP of fusion. Obviously loads of talent, some catchy licks here and there, lots of technical bravado, but not a whole lot of substance.

Still fun to listen to, if only to hear the Polymoog and Yamaha YC-45D combo organ.

[Shawn]

I don't own any RTF, but I happened to be listening to one of those old CBS sampler discs earlier today...it contains the track Medieval Overture...I couldn't hit the skip button fast enough.

I love fusion, been on quite a kick of it recently, but I don't think I'd have the stomach for much of this stuff if that track is any indication.

On the flip side of the coin, I heard a track from the album "John McLaughlin - Electric Guitarist", I think I need to get that one.

[rostasi]

Aurora "Wolf" Di Meola has her opinion.

I still think much of RTF is pixie-ass wanking.

[Hot Ptah]

What I have always wondered about DiMeola--was he really in the same room with this model when the photos were taken for this cover:

I saw Return to Forever live twice in 1975-76. They were pretty good live, certainly quite energetic and cohesive. The crowd went wild each time. Corea tended to showboat on his massive bank of synthesizers. playing simple things and acting as if he was doing something amazing. Clarke played very fast, dazzling solos on electric bass. If you like that sort of thing, you liked what he was doing.

Di Meola struck me then as a reasonably skilled hard rock guitarist. There was not the jazz "something more" in his playing that one got from Coryell and McLaughlin at that time, although they were similarly amped up and playing rock oriented material at their concerts.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Hot Ptah

[7/4]

What I have always wondered about DiMeola--was he really in the same room with this model when the photos were taken for this cover:

I say no, but maybe if he had a note from his parents.

I saw Return to Forever live twice in 1975-76. They were pretty good live, certainly quite energetic and cohesive. The crowd went wild each time. Corea tended to showboat on his massive bank of synthesizers. playing simple things and acting as if he was doing something amazing. Clarke played very fast, dazzling solos on electric bass. If you like that sort of thing, you liked what he was doing.

Di Meola struck me then as a reasonably skilled hard rock guitarist. There was not the jazz "something more" in his playing that one got from Coryell and McLaughlin at that time, although they were similarly amped up and playing rock oriented material at their concerts.

yep.