Big fire in Universal studios destroyed jazz recordings?

[AllenLowe]

what Decca box?

[Chuck Nessa]

what Decca box?

Wonderful set:

Were you aware of the Long titles?

Edited June 11, 2008 by Chuck Nessa

[mmilovan]

Guess I can finally forget about hearing Vocalion 1150 from the metal parts:

MARGUERITE LONG WITH THE ELLINGTON TRIO - New York, November, 1927

ML vocal accompanied by Otto Hardwicke (alto saxophone), Duke Ellington (piano), Wellman Braud (bass)

Naaaah, there is no need to worry about, they have all physical back-up copies of these.

[Chuck Nessa]

Naaaah, there is no need to worry about, they have all physical back-up copies of these.

I will sleep more deeply tonight with this information.

[medjuck]

Guess I can finally forget about hearing Vocalion 1150 from the metal parts:

MARGUERITE LONG WITH THE ELLINGTON TRIO - New York, November, 1927

ML vocal accompanied by Otto Hardwicke (alto saxophone), Duke Ellington (piano), Wellman Braud (bass)

E6783 You Will Always Live In Our Memory unissued

E6784 You Will Always Live In Our Memory Vocalion 1150

E6787 She's Gone To Join the Songbirds In Heaven unissued

E6788 She's Gone To Join the Songbirds In Heaven Vocalion 1150

Not to mention the missing masters E6785/6.

I had hoped this would be on the (otherwise wonderful) Decca box.

I got 2 responses from writing about this to the Duke-lym list serve:

1)The new DESOR lists the singer's name as Marguerite Lee rather than Long and indicates that neither song was released. DESOR shows only one take for each title. The missing matrix (E6785/6) is "Gone But Not Forgotten" sung by "Walter Richardson with the Ellington Trio." Again, DESOR shows only one, unissued, take. (86).

2) As mentioned by Leland Farley, the name was Lee not Long. She was Arthur Whetsel's second wife (noted sometime in DEMS, courtesy Sjef).

The songs mentioned are part of the large number of commemorative items recorded by various people at the time of Florence Mills's death. The Lee items were never issued (despite the catalogue numbers) and presumed destroyed, as also was Fats Waller's original composition, though his accompaniments to other people's tributes have survived.

Some years ago I posted the following info:

Steven [Lasker ] tells me that Hardwicke and Braud were not on that session but instead some unnamed violin and cello players. My original information re Hardwicke and Braud was from Rust's "Jazz Records" but I am now inclined to accept Steven's view.

Bill in Australia

And then the bad news:

Brad Kay's posted to 78-l (the 78 maillist of which, I think, several

LYMers are also members) saying that he and Steven were at the "vault"

(space apparently rented from the movie company by the music one) a

couple of years back and that many 78 metal parts were there then

including from Gennett, Vocalion and Paramount.

His view is that if Universal Music/Vivendi hadn't moved the stuff

(for instance to space they have in Iron Mountain's underground setup

in PA), it would most likely have been lost, along with whatever else

was there of course.

Steven's view is also that the loss is likely to be very significant.

Despite "reassuring" comments which have emerged unattributed

suggesting that what was there was (a) only a small amount of what had

been there, (b) further that that had been only a small amount of

their total holdings (no doubt true overall but likely irrelevant),

and © it wasn't stuff by major artists anyhow (again not really

relevant even if considered true!), one view is that this way largely

a repository of material acquired though acquisition of small labels,

and that most likely noone knew all of what was there.

My understanding (nothing more) is that - up to a couple of weeks ago

at least! - a very great deal of metal existed for American Decca and

some for Gennett and the original Vocalion and Brunswick labels too -

all owned by what one could casually call MCA, now UMG - but that it

wasn't all stored in one location, nor was it all in the best

condition. Apart from at Uni and possibly in the above mentioned

mountain facility, I do not know where else it is housed, however.

I'd be grateful for any further information.

Incidentally, I also understand that Sony (Columbia/ARC/CBS/etc. and

now Victor/RCA) stores metal at (in?) Iron Mountain, but I do not know

if they currently have any anywhere else.

As a side issue, on Brunswick in particular, quite a number of what

one could call "jazz classics" (including by Ellington) were still to

be found, pressed from master, available to buy new in Britain on

shellac in the '50s. Anyone any idea what happened to this metal as

the microgroove era progressed?

When I asked similarly of the EMI archive here some years ago they

told me that "popular" (including jazz) masters has been destroyed at

the end of the 78 era, but that they counted their "classical" 78

metals (negatives and positives) in the tens of thousands - I don't

know if either statement was accurate. They list 78 metals for various

labels amongst their inventory today. (Indeed, one can buy new

pressings of some of these on the Historic Masters label, all

classical vocal.)

I wonder as, obviously, a good condition mother part would be as

useful as the father (negative) original in practical terms...

I know that some (a very small number) of mothers have emerged

recently from Germany. I "won" two such on eBay - both Goodmans with

Teagarden singing in 1933 - these are the only 78 parts I have seen,

although apparently parts for the OKeh Mooche and Sweet Chariot and at

least one or two other Ellingtons and a couple of Armstrongs have also

come onto the market. All commonly issued material.

Best,

A

[Adam]

Everything that Universal originally announces as being "a little" (as in "only a little material was left from teh 1930s and 1940s) has pretty much ended up being "a lot" to most mortals.

[mmilovan]

Is there any confirmation of proportions of damage - were there only records or metal parts, memorabilia, session lists and so on...

[mmilovan]

Some more observations here:

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/bs...post?id=2968320

Also, from one forum I've read:

Michael Biel

to ARSCLIST

It is a sad day over at the 78-L and I am not going to cross-post what is over there, but just give you heads-up. Richard Sudhalter passed away last night. And there is now confirmation that the Universal vault fire consumed the entire Decca masters from the 30s thru the 50s. Metal, tape, test pressings, and paper.

There's no justice in the world.

Edited September 20, 2008 by mmilovan

[Jazzmoose]

Okay, I've caught up with the entire thread, and have no idea what was burned, who saw what when, or if there even was a fire. I give up...

[montg]

Unfortunately, this type of thing is nothing new. A discussion on this board a few years ago on the atlantic fires linked this article describing the sad history of archival practices of the major labels

Vault losses

[Jazzmoose]

Thanks for the link!

[AllenLowe]

I've mentioned this before but I have a number of LPs from material that Decca owned - some of these are recordings from the 1920s from other labels that are fantastically clear; I think I'll gather these together and post them - if all this material is, as I suspect, now gone, these LPs (which are beautifully transferred) are doubly important -

this is really horrible, I think (and no one has mentioned that the lost material may include the Louis Armstrong masters!)

[Christiern]

And just as I was planning a pilgrimage to Decca.

[mmilovan]

Okay, I've caught up with the entire thread, and have no idea what was burned, who saw what when, or if there even was a fire. I give up...

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/02/local/me-studiofire2

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

can someone recount or share links re: other similar record label related/vault/tape releated insider stories like found in the award winning vault piece. ive recently tried to look at those bsn and steve hofmann forums you guys mention but i havent come across much.,...

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

"It happens all the time. At PolyGram, there are missing multitracks by Cream--lost somewhere along the line between when Atlantic sold them to Polydor, apparently," another source said. "MCA can't find masters by Three Dog Night, The Grass Roots. Sony can't find some Bang label multitrack masters. On the other hand, somebody opened a mystery box at BMG the other day and found some unreleased Hot Tuna. It happens all the time in the industry."

GUYS ON ORGANISSIMO WHO KNOW ABOUT THE RECORD INDUSTRY:

ARE PEOPLE JUST HORDING THESE TAPES FOR THEMSELVES? EARLIER IT GENERALY SAID THAT MANY ROCK AND ROLL/r&b TAPES ARE MISSING. ARE PEOPLE JUST TAKING THEM. SOME OF U GUYS HAVE REALLY BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME, AND PROBABLY HAVE SEEN SOME CRAZY STUFF AT THIS LEVEL OF THE RECORD BUSSINESS.

DO ANY OF U KNOW ABOUT THAT, OR HAVE STORIES ABOUT TAPES SIMILAR TO THE AWARD WINNING VAULT PIECE

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

also what do u guys know about "vault-trashing"??? has anyone had any expierecnes w/ that

[mmilovan]

EARLIER IT GENERALY SAID THAT MANY ROCK AND ROLL/r&b TAPES ARE MISSING. ARE PEOPLE JUST TAKING THEM.

Also, some people like other things beside BN, Verve etc. F.e., perhaps we will never hear Jimmy Dorsey orchestra in full light, ever. They recorded for Decca.

[mikeweil]

also what do u guys know about "vault-trashing"??? has anyone had any expierecnes w/ that

RCA dumping their Camden branch may be a case in point ...

The most notorious episode occurred in the early 1960's, when RCA dynamited the Camden, N.J., warehouse that held the masters for Victor Records' thousands of acoustic-era 78's. The rubble was bulldozed into the Delaware River and a pier was built atop it: a huge part of our musical heritage, entombed in a watery grave.

Source

Reading about this almost makes me vomit.

Edited September 21, 2008 by mikeweil

[jazzbo]

And just as I was planning a pilgrimage to Decca.

Good one Chris.

Hey, this is the way of the world. I'm fascinated by antiquity. I cannot even begin to fully imagine all the marvels lost forever. . . .

[Larry Kart]

Comment from another board from a jazz expert, after he had perused the cries of doom:

"...what a load of bs! Some from people I knew ages ago, still at it!... Bing and QHCF [Quintet of the Hot Club of France] are the least of my worries, and nothing about older stuff, as I suspected..."

[Christiern]

The article mikeweil links to has led me to this incredible site.. The bad thing about it is that you may end up spending hours, days, listening to thousands of cylinders.

The ODJB may not have been as pioneering as believed.

The audio quality is amazing. Listen to this version of "Didn't He Ramble" sung by Arthur Collins 106 years ago.

Edited September 21, 2008 by Christiern

[J.A.W.]

The article mikeweil links to has led me to this incredible site.. The bad thing about it is that you may end up spending hours, days, listening to thousands of cylinders.

The ODJB may not have been as pioneering as believed.

The audio quality is amazing. Listen to this version of "Didn't He Ramble" sung by Arthur Collins 106 years ago.

Thanks for posting that link. The sound quality of that 1902 (the year my father was born...) track is indeed amazing.

[AllenLowe]

there are those (including myself) who think it quite possible that Collins was just passing -

Edited September 21, 2008 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

Larry - I saw that and I think it may be missing the point - Decca owned, I believe, a lot of incredibly important 1920s and 1930s early jazz/blues/washboard/country stuff which has tricked out on LP over the years, some of it in incredible sound from masters - I'm hoping over the next few weeks to pull some things from my LP collection (and some cds if I can pull them easily) that might give some idea of what we've lost - if I can get the time, I will report back -