Rooster_Ties Posted October 9, 2003 Report Posted October 9, 2003 If he did, I should probably know about it - but I don't. But I don't feel too bad -- Free For All and I were discussing this the other day, and he didn't know the answer either. I'm guessing he didn't, or else I might have heard about it by now. ( Then again, I could be completely forgetting some super-obvious date that I should be remembering, but clearly have forgotten. ) Quote
John B Posted October 9, 2003 Report Posted October 9, 2003 According to the online Coltrane Sessionography he did not. Quote
mikeweil Posted October 9, 2003 Report Posted October 9, 2003 David Wild's Coltrane disco confirms this - he doesn't even mention organ in the instrument abbreviations! Would have been interesting. One of the very few hard bop generation tenor saxists who never recorded with organists, well Rollins didn't either, did he? But name anybody else, and I'm sure he did. Doesn't that Coltrane interview linked in a different thread include a passing reference to a gig with Jimmy Smith? Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted October 9, 2003 Author Report Posted October 9, 2003 If there had been something that I'd overlooked, I was gonna guess a Jimmy Smith date from the late 50's. (Sorta like how I sometimes forget that Tina Brooks is on one or two Jimmy Smith dates.) Quote
Free For All Posted October 9, 2003 Report Posted October 9, 2003 Trane/Larry Young/Elvin Jones. Sigh.............if only............... Quote
.:.impossible Posted October 9, 2003 Report Posted October 9, 2003 No shit! That really would have been something! Slightly on-topic, have the tapes with Wes Montgomery and the Quartet surfaced anywhere? I am very curious to hear what that was like. Wes seems an unlikely candidate to me, but I may be wrong. Quote
Michael Fitzgerald Posted October 10, 2003 Report Posted October 10, 2003 A little minutia - In 1946 Coltrane played with the Joe Webb band which included an organist. Coltrane was playing with Jimmy Smith just before he joined Miles Davis in 1955. Tomorrow I'll be speaking to the guy who took his place on that gig - Odean Pope. Also, around the same time Coltrane played in a band with Shirley Scott. Alice Coltrane overdubbed organ on Coltrane stuff that had been recorded on 2/2/66. Mike Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted October 10, 2003 Report Posted October 10, 2003 Coltrane ALWAYS recorded with an organ. Quote
Guest ariceffron Posted October 10, 2003 Report Posted October 10, 2003 YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY. DIDNT COLTRANE PLAY WITH JIMMY SMITH FOR A FEW WEEKS ONCE. YOU MEAN TO TELL ME NO ONE RECORDED IT. BULL-SHIT. BULLSHIT. I AM TELLING YOU. SOMEONE COULD HAVE RECORDED IT BUT WE JUST DONT KNOW ABOUT IT. THIS IS HARDCORE RESEACRCH IM TALKING ABOUT HERE. LIKE FUCKING GOING AROUND KNOCKING ON PEOPLES DOORS. BUT ISNT THAT WORTH IT TO HEAR COLTRANE AND JIMMY. Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted October 10, 2003 Author Report Posted October 10, 2003 THIS IS HARDCORE RESEACRCH IM TALKING ABOUT HERE. LIKE FUCKING GOING AROUND KNOCKING ON PEOPLES DOORS. Quote
JSngry Posted October 10, 2003 Report Posted October 10, 2003 Considering the people who USUALLY knock on my door, I'd be thrilled to get an inquiry about some Trane/Smith tapes, so long as a pitch for magazine subscriptons, miracle household cleaner, or the God I thought I knew but apparently don't was not part of the deal. Quote
John L Posted October 10, 2003 Report Posted October 10, 2003 Coltrane apparently used to jam with Larry Young sometimes. No recordings that I know of. Quote
P.D. Posted October 10, 2003 Report Posted October 10, 2003 Considering the people who USUALLY knock on my door, I'd be thrilled to get an inquiry about some Trane/Smith tapes, so long as a pitch for magazine subscriptons, miracle household cleaner, or the God I thought I knew but apparently don't was not part of the deal. That would be cool. Lets start am ORG Telemarketing system to answer questions like this. We'll have Aric randomly calling households across the US asking Coltrane and Jazz related questions. Quote
sidewinder Posted October 10, 2003 Report Posted October 10, 2003 How about Aric starting off with a survey of the housholds in the NW and Prairies states over the Nov - Feb timeframe. No thermals allowed and we could even add Canada in there too ! Quote
Guest ariceffron Posted October 14, 2003 Report Posted October 14, 2003 coltrane and shirely scott would have been the absoutley the best shit ever. shirly and trane both had huge bombastic sounds and together it would have been magic Quote
.:.impossible Posted November 11, 2003 Report Posted November 11, 2003 Slightly on-topic, have the tapes with Wes Montgomery and the Quartet surfaced anywhere? I am very curious to hear what that was like. Wes seems an unlikely candidate to me, but I may be wrong. Up. Is anyone familiar with this incarnation of the Coltrane Quartet plus? I often wonder what made Wes' sound a likely candidate. If anyone has heard this group, or has an online source describing the music, I'd be very appreciative if they'd post here. Quote
mikeweil Posted November 11, 2003 Report Posted November 11, 2003 Wild's Place would be the first source for this, I know we once wrote an article on this for disc'ribe, don't know if there's a copy of ot online. But he should know. Quote
ghost of miles Posted November 11, 2003 Report Posted November 11, 2003 Slightly on-topic, have the tapes with Wes Montgomery and the Quartet surfaced anywhere? I am very curious to hear what that was like. Wes seems an unlikely candidate to me, but I may be wrong. Up. Is anyone familiar with this incarnation of the Coltrane Quartet plus? I often wonder what made Wes' sound a likely candidate. If anyone has heard this group, or has an online source describing the music, I'd be very appreciative if they'd post here. I know it's a topic that's come up numerous times, definitely on the old BNBB and probably here as well. Supposedly there's a low-quality audience tape of a 40 or 45-minute set w/Coltrane and Montgomery from late '61 (Monterey, perhaps?). Supposedly it's not as impressive as we might think. I'd certainly like to hear it if it ever surfaces (somebody on the BNBB reported they'd been offered a copy of this tape for the low, low price of $2,500), but I'm not expecting anything amazing. It's kind of difficult for me to imagine Wes and that late '61 quintet really meshing together--in a way, though, that does pique my curiosity, just to hear how it didn't work as much as how it might have worked. Quote
.:.impossible Posted November 12, 2003 Report Posted November 12, 2003 Same here David. I just can't imagine how Wes Montgomery would have gotten the invite to sit in if there wasn't something there. Quote
mikeweil Posted November 12, 2003 Report Posted November 12, 2003 So here's part of what David Wild wrote for the first issue of the magazine disc'ribe that he and Michael Cuscuna run for three years, published fall 1980 - seems it is not available online: Wes & Trane - An unrecorded sextet For all the many contexts in which John Coltrane's horn was captured on tape, there remain a number of fascinating undocumented combinations whose sound we only can imagine. One of the more interesting is the short-lived Coltrane sextet featuring Eric Dolphy and Wes Montgomery. .... I suspect Montgomery's contact with Coltrane may have initially come through brother Buddy; The vibist joined Coltrane in a Miles Davis Sextet for several West Coast concerts (February 1960). But other contacts were also likely during the year. Montgomery evidently remained on the West coast after the disbanding [of the Mastersounds], recording with his two brothers in LA in July, and leading a studio quintet for Riverside on October 11. Coltrane meanwhile had ended his association with Miles (April) and within a month had debuted with his own group. By January 3, 1961 (when they recorded for Riverside in NYC), the Montgomery brothers had formed a working band (under that name), beginning two years of struggle with the economics of the music business. Six months later Coltrane seems to have begun to consider expanding the size of his group. He was regularly adding a second bassist (usually Art Davis) for NYC engagements, and the two bassists were featured on recording sessions in May and June. But Coltrane also seems to have been receptive to other combinations, and late summer brought an invitation to Eric Dolphy to join the quartet. Dolphy was in Europe in late August - early September of 1961; he returned in mid-September and immediately joined Coltrane's group in Southern California. Montgomery had recorded under hsi own name in New York on August 4, but he evidently was back on the West Coast in September, for he too joined Coltrane's band. The six-piece group played at San Francisco's Jazz Workshop the last two weeks of September (through October 1), and Coltrane brought it to the Monterey Jazz Festival (100 miles south of the city) on Friday, September 22. down beat's Don DeMichael devoted several paragraphs of his review of the festival to Coltrane's performance: "..... Besides his regular rhythm section, made up of pianist McCoy Tyner, bassist Reggie Workman, and drummer Elvin Jones, Coltrane had guitarist Wes Montgomery and reedman Eric Dolphy with him ..... The group played only three tunes, though it was on stage for almist an hour. "Montgomery stood out among the soloists, his chorusses marked by his wonderful rhythmic flair. His solos were notable for diversity of approach. On My Favourite Things he used call-and response devices within his solo, with periodic returns to the melody and linear improvisatory passages as counterbalances. On Naima, a ballad, Montgomery employed octaves, the total effect being an extension of the melody. Montgomery's most exciting work - he seemed as if he would swing off the stand - was on the third tune, So What?. "Coltrane and Dolphy had intonation trouble throughout the set, but both overcame the problem to a certain extent and and played some exciting solos, though neither was as moving or as consistent as Montgomery. "Even when Coltrane is not playing his best, he has the ability to create an aura of wild excitement at up tempos. On ballads his playing can be soothing, but underneath, there is excitement. Judging by his work this night, Coltrane may be entering another phase of his development; at times, he indulged in what sounded like animal sounds, especially on his second My Favourite Things solo. "Dolphy played flute (My Favourite Things), bass clarinet (Naima, and alto (So What?. While his flute work was generally good, part of his solo sounded as if he were trying to imitate birds. His use of quarter tones on Things led nowhere. And this seemed his greatest hang-up; none of his solos had a clear direction. "The ensemble possibilities inherent in the group wre made clear on Naima. Coltrane and Dolphy combined soprano and bass clarinet in the first melody statement, achieving a rich, chocolately sound. They used tenor and bass clarinet on the closing theme statement, the sound becoming darker and heavier. If Coltrane is able to keep this group together, it could turn into one of the most interesting in jazz ....." down beat, November 9, 1961, pages 12-13). DeMichael was obviously not prepared for the new approach Coltrane and Dolphy were exploring, and his bemused comments can be considered the opening salva in the 'Anti-Jazz Controversy' which raged around the two reed players that fall. Nonetheless, phrases like 'animal sounds' and 'intonation problems' indicate that the freer approach known to us through the Village Vanguard recordingsand the tapes of the subsequent European tour were already much in evidence. The three titles performed (and their length) also foreshadow the familiar repertoire of those later recordings - So What? is of course Impressions (at the time untitled). DeMichael's favorable reaction to Montgomery paradoxically suggests that the guitarist's solos were more conservative (if equally inventive). His characterization of Montgomery's swing is of course right on the mark. Most other questions however remain unanswerable speculation. Was Coltrane fascinated with Indian music behind his attraction to 'string' sound (Montgomery's sitar to his shenai, so to speak)? Would Coltrane's expectation have 'rubbed off' on Montgomery (as it had to an extent on Cannonball Adderley three years earlier)? Such questions remain speculation because Montgomery did not join the band permanently. From the 'Jazz Workshop' Coltrane moved to the 'Renaissance' in Los Angeles (October 3-8). Montgomery may have been with the band for part of this time, But John Tynan's violent 'Anti-Jazz' column (written after a visit to the club) lists only Coltrane, Dolphy, Tyner, Workman and Jones. Why Montgomery turned Coltrane down remains equally unanswerable. One historian's allegation that Montgomery's short stay was the result of equally short solo space is not supported, at least not by DeMichael's review. Probably Montgomery's commitment to the Montgomery Brothers Band (in which he was easily the best player) overrode the opportunity that working with Coltrane would have offered. (That the Brothers were still a working band is evidenced by a recording with George Shearing on October 9 and 10, in LA). Montgomery shared the bandstand at least one more time with Coltrane, in May of 1962. Dolphy had left Coltrane towards the end of March; a mention of his departure in down beat was coupled with the cryptic comment "Trend-ites are wondering if Coltrane will add a guitar" (June 7, 1962, p. 10). The following issue noted that "Wes Montgomery played with John Coltrane's quartet during its stay at the Jazz Workshop here (San Francisco), but declined an offer of permanent membership" (June 21, 1962, p. 45). Again one must assume that the Montgomery Brothers Band still had first call on Wes' talents, although the runion also suggests that both men enjoyed performing together. On May 21 (a Sunday), the last day of the gig, the quartet was further augmented by Dolphy and violinist Michael White. ..... [some remarks on Wes' further career including his collaborations with the Wynton Kelly Trio complete the article] I'd say there may be a recording of the Monterey Jazz Festival performance, if any exist at all, which I doubt, in spite of what has been reported. I simply can't imagine someone turned down an offer to buy any tape of this in whatever inferior sound quality ... Quote
The Mule Posted November 13, 2003 Report Posted November 13, 2003 This was discussed on the old boards, but the booklet to the Mosaic Larry Young set mentions that Trane and Young would get together often to jam and some of those performances might have been privately recorded. Man, would I love to hear those! Wonder if Alice has the tapes? Quote
ghost of miles Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 I'll have to check when I'm at home, but I think Lewis Porter lists an audience tape of the sextet w/Montgomery in the back of his Coltrane bio. Quote
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