What happened to Larry Young in 62-63??

[Soul Stream]

Larry Young was a good, but basically undistiguished jazz organist in the early sixties. He churned out some unremarkable, Smith-esqe stuff for Prestige. I DO love those albums, I'm not saying that. But in the way I like a lot of guys. They could play badass bar soul-jazz. Johnny "Hammond" Smith comes to mind in this school.

However, in January and Feb. of 1963 he cut his last album for Prestige with Booker and Pony Poindexter. It had quite a bit more of what would become the Young style but.....later that same year he cut "Talkin' About", "Into Something" and all those great Grant Green Blue Notes....virtually all at once!!!! Mere days seperating some of those sessions.

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED!!!!!! I mean how can anyway morph so quickly?????

Edited October 8, 2003 by Soul Stream

[Joe G]

It would be great if we could hear from someone who was close to him around this time. This was the time of the Coltrane classic quartet, which certainly had a profound effect on a lot of musicians of the time. I don't really know his story all that well, but I sure would like to learn more about him.

[Soul Stream]

What's so startling about the change is....it's not so much that the concept just appeared out of nowhere. The Pony date proves that as well as the previous "Talkin' About J.C" on the Prestige date. But, it's just that the concept becomes CRYSAL clear by "Talkin' Bout" on Blue Note. I mean, execution, concept, ideas, touch...EVERYTHING.

His bass playing wasn't always the greatest on the Prestige stuff, but on the Blue Note dates he's mastered every nuance of the bass.

I just have a hard time conceiving the idea that he virtually changed overnight. He's so damn MATURE in his playing, whereas before he was immature in many ways. I just don't get it. SOMETHING happened to that guy. Maybe he just hit the woodshed. I don't know. It's pretty damn amazing.

[AfricaBrass]

Great thread Soul Stream!

I think I remember reading somewhere that Young frequently jammed with John Coltrane when Coltrane bought his house in Engelwood Cliffs. For some reason, I think it was in the book Chasin' the Trane, though I could be wrong. I wonder is this could have been the time period that this shift occured.

Just guessing.

[Joe G]

I've got that book right here, but there's no index, so I'd have to read the whole thing to find any reference to Larry. Seems like there was some mention of the two of them practicing together in that newspaper article Kevin linked a while back.

[AfricaBrass]

I could be wrong, but I really think that I read they practiced together.

Does anyone know?

[Joe G]

I'm pretty sure they did, I just wanted to find out what the timeframe was. I found the Larry Young thread, but that linked article seems to be long gone.

[JSngry]

The possibility also exists that Young had been honing this concept for quite a while but that either he or Prestige (and possibly both) didn't want to record it, and instead the "safer" approach was what was captured and released (let's go fishing!).

My hunch would be that Prestige was either reluctant about or outright uninterested in anything that strayed too far from traditional organ jazz. This was the time when organ groups really had a market of their own, and I'd not be surpirised but that Prestige (who had a REAL good grip on the market at the time) wanted "product" first and "explorations" second. Blue Note obviously worked under a different esthetic, at least to a certain extent, so when Young signed with them, it was an opportunuity to unveil all the stuff he'd been getting together the last few years. If this theory is correct, then it only SEEMS like the change was sudden. It had probably been going on for several years as a part of Larry's natural growth and evolution but had not been documented on record because the label viewed it as "noncommercial" or some such. Be a "commodity", not an "artist". dig?

But maybe Larry felt that until he had it all together, at least in HIS mind, he'd rather not release it on a record. Some cats are like that - they're always growing, but they want to take the "safer" approach to records, because they view records, rightly, imo, as career tools, and a "noble failure" would maybe be bad for business. What you hear in person and on record are often two TOTALLY different things. In a market w/as much competition as existed in the East Coast organ market in those days, I'd think Larry might have been reluctant to release a record that didn't do EXACTLY what he wanted it to do. Competition can do that to you, and the jazz field has ALWAYS been competitive when it comes to gigs and whatnot. Still, I can't see Prestige being interested in, much less actually releasing, ANYTHING like INTO SOMETHING & UNITY at the time, much less the later stuff. So I'd lean towards "record company indifference" as my final guess.

This is all speculation, mind you. I've got no direct knowledge of any of this. It's just what I see as a "likely scenario" based on what I know of the market and the business of the time, which is far from complete. So if anybody has first hand knowledge, I'm all ears!

[Jim Alfredson]

My guess would be a combination of Soul Stream and Sangry's assessments. He probably had an idea of what he wanted to do before he got to Blue Note but Prestige didn't want to stray from the formula. And before he made his first record for Blue Note he probably shed his ass off!!!!

[Soul Stream]

But just take a quick listen to the two versions (Prestige vs Blue Note) of "Talkin' About J.C." I mean, it's the same song, same organist....he's in the same territory stylistically but...

I don't think Larry COULD have played the Blue Note version at that earlier time. Label pressure or no. I think he didn't have the concept together or his playing fully formed.

It all goes back to the same thing. You can hear his style creeping up on him. It's REALLY getting close on the Booker Ervin/Pony Poindexter date. But just a short time after that he's THERE. Remember, Prestige didn't release that last date he did. Probably for those stylistic reasons (maybe, who knows for sure). But even on that he's not THE LARRY YOUNG yet. But in a few months he WAS.

THAT is just plain freaky to me. He just didn't advance his playing...he leapfrogged a hundred fold. Because, think about it...he then recorded about 5 legendary albums pretty damn quick.

[Jim Alfredson]

Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Then again look at the circumstances. Unlike our scene today, he had the opportunity to play in clubs that appreciated the music every night and really hone his skills.

I don't know about anyone else, but my advances in playing usually come as a plateau, not a gradual slope. It seems like I practice and practice and practice something and don't get there and then all of sudden I have it. It was that way with kickin' pedals and getting my left hand independent of my right. I mean, I've gotten better on both with practice, but when I first tried to play pedals I couldn't get my foot to work at all without constantly thinking about it and then one day I just didn't think about it anymore.

So maybe that's what happened with him. He just shed, but was constantly searching for what was in his head and then all of sudden, at the right time, it just came to him.

Or maybe he's just a bad motherfucker.

[Soul Stream]

I know exactly what you mean Jim. Playing is like that...bit by bit...and then it's there. Like someone once said (maybe on this board perhaps), "when you're bored with it, that's when you know you've got it down."

I understand all that. But Jim, don't you think that leap from his last Prestige recording to the first Green Blue Note is GIGANTIC!?

I know you're on a listening haitus, so you can't really go back and listen to the jump he made. But put it on your "to do" list when you come out of the forrest.

[Jim Alfredson]

No I agree with you. I remember when I first heard those Prestige sides. I had to double-check the personel. "Is that really THE Larry Young? Maybe it's his dad."

Like I said, maybe he was just super bad!

Or maybe he went down to the crossroads...

[Shrdlu]

I think the answer is: Alfred Lion. This is often the case.

Plus, that first BN session has Elvin, unlike the Prestiges. On that session, Elvin is at his swingin'-est. When I play "Looney Tune", I find myself bouncing with the beat. Elvin has been my favorite for many years, and you can't go wrong when he's behind you. I even got to play with a drummer who could get that feel!

There are no horns to clutter things up on "Talkin' About", and so Larry can really get going.

Plus, there's Grant Green at his best, and who would not be inspired by him.

Someone once said that BN always had the best rhythm sections, and it's true.

[DrJ]

Others have made great points and I suspect a combo of label indifference at Prestige and some other factors played into the seemingly "overnight" change.

Another thing to ponder: in reading the Mosaic booklet, Young seemed like the type of dude who really had issues related to self-confidence - he needed to feel like he had an audience who dug/appreciated him (as I'm sure many or even most musicians do). After the BN years and then Lifetime he really foundered looking for a context and audience and I think his music suffered for it.

I don't think it's out of the question that the "factor X" that led to the change from the Prestige to BN sessions, then, was simply feeling like he'd found musicians and patrons (Lion and Wolff) who "got" what he was hoping to do and gave him basically free reign to explore his muse. That would have been the key, and all the other stuff (creative juices begin flowing, accompanied by hitting the woodshed with new enthusiasm, for example) would typically follow. That's my suspicion, but it's an unfounded guess of course.

[sidewinder]

Great thread - a good excuse to give the Larry Young Mosaic set a well deserved airing. I can't find any mention of Larry in the 'Chaisin' the Trane' book but on page 2 of the Mosaic booklet is the following:

...He struck up an acquaintance with Coltrane, who was fascinated by Larry's conversion to the Suni Muslim faith (Larry would later use his Muslim name Khalid Yasim on some occasions). Never one to go for dogma or unyeilding doctrine, Larry drew from religion a deep spirituality and unity which is sadly lost on those who 'follow' rather than 'think' in any sect. Coltrane connected with this way of thinking, and a strong friendship developed to the point that their families would often gather at Coltrane's Huntington, Long Island home in '65 and '66 where he and Larry would play duets for hours. Unfortunately, no documentation of those musical encounters exists....'

I think this paragraph explains a key factor underlying much of Larry's inspired work from the mid-60s onwards.

[AfricaBrass]

Thanks Sidewinder!

I knew I had read that they played together, but since it was in '65-66 it doesn't answer the initial question, but I can see how it may have effected his later work.

[sidewinder]

To me, the 'Trane influence seems to be particularly strong from 'Unity' onwards. Admitedly, using Elvin on drums only helps push things in this direction big time ! :rsmile:

[Soul Stream]

From a musical standpoint, the "Trane" influence really only shows itself through McCoy Tyner. Larry's concept is so built upon stacked fourths that it's hard to pinpoint much else that is different.

[ghost of miles]

  AfricaBrass said:

Great thread Soul Stream!

I think I remember reading somewhere that Young frequently jammed with John Coltrane when Coltrane bought his house in Engelwood Cliffs. For some reason, I think it was in the book Chasin' the Trane, though I could be wrong. I wonder is this could have been the time period that this shift occured.

Just guessing.

Isn't there alleged to be a tape of a Young/Coltrane practice session floating around somewhere?

[Joe]

  Soul Stream said:

From a musical standpoint, the "Trane" influence really only shows itself through McCoy Tyner. Larry's concept is so built upon stacked fourths that it's hard to pinpoint much else that is different.

And Young did begin his musical career as a pianist. Time for me to revisit Woody Shaw's CASSANDRANITE and Nathan Davis' HAPPY GIRL, which probably feature the best documentary evidence of what he sounded like as a piano player during this period.

I have to say Young does not sound all that Jimmy Smith-like to me. Maybe a little bit on TESTIFYIN', but certainly not on YOUNG BLUES. I'm thinking speicifically of the version of "Nica's Dream" on that record, which has led me to believe that Young had listened quite a bit to another pianist / organist... Shirley Scott.

[mikeweil]

  Shrdlu said:

There are no horns to clutter things up on "Talkin' About", and so Larry can really get going.

Plus, there's Grant Green at his best, and who would not be inspired by him.

Someone once said that BN always had the best rhythm sections, and it's true.

Yeah, the horns players Young had on the Prestige dates were in a rather conservative bag - Bill Leslie, Jimmy Forrest (although in a very good way), Joe Holiday - only Booker Ervin was as modern as Young, and that wasn't released at the time. All of his session mates at Blue Note were as modern as he was - compare Sam Rivers to Leslie, Holiday or Forrest - one of the most advanced tenors of the time (he still is today!).

There is a comparatively long gap between the date with Booker Ervin for Prestige (February 28, 1963) and his first Blue Note session, Grant Green's Talkin' About (September 11, 1964) - a lot can happen in 18 months! No recording sessions in between, and his last dates for Prestige before the one with Ervin were sideman dates for Gildo Mahones and Etta Jones, a date with Thornel Schwartz for Argo, his own last session had been on February 27, 1962 Groove Street. Many things can happen in such a time span, really looks a lot like woodshedding.

[Soul Stream]

I didn't realize it was 18 months. That IS a long time. He obviously really woodsheded his new concept during that time. He perfected his own thing. Simple as that I guess.

[Joe G]

Slightly off topic; in the liner notes to McDuff's The Honeydripper, from '61, it states that this was Grant Green's first recording session. Perhaps someone else can confirm or deny that, but what's interesting is that by that time, Grant's thing was pretty much fully formed (I love his solo on "Whap!"). So we don't have the kind of growth spurt with Grant that we see with Larry.

[sidewinder]

Wasn't Green's first recording session 'All the Gin Is Gone' with Jimmy Forrest on Delmark? Recording date given as Dec 10th 1959. Interestingly, Elvin Jones was on this one.