Jason Moran

[Steve Reynolds]

Oops - I edited my earlier post rather than quoting it.

I was simply hoping to hear back who the "grating and unoriginal" avant-garde musicians were who put on those depressing shows. Was hoping to get more than the typical broad brush smear of those crazy avant-gardists

Fwiw - I listened closely to Breaking Glass this AM and I am non-plussed by Moran. Not my favorite Trio 3 + recording but them again, I prefer them by a bit without the piano added. I can give them a little push back on adding Moran and Iyer in order to get those two weeks on successive years at Birdland!!

Then again, if some of you were paying attention in the late 90's the trio could barely get a sniff from anything close to a jazz club. So I guess they all had to get over 70 for that to happen!!!!

[Leeway]

Five star review in today's Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/sep/11/jason-moran-meshell-ndegeocello-all-rise-a-joyful-elegy-review

NPR, ironically, is less enthusiastic:

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=350633603

In my view, Moran did his best work with Greg Osby, and Osby did his best work with Moran. I don't know if they accentuated each other's positives, or nullified each other's negatives.

Moran has always had a habit of "cultivating" older, even legendary jazz figures, from Sam Rivers (almost always cited when Moran is mentioned) through Cecil Taylor (Moran tried to play duet with Cecil (!!) at a Kennedy Center concert, which fortunately was cancelled), Anthony Braxton (Moran inserted himself in the ensemble at a Kennedy Center performance, with ugly results), and now Fats Waller. Fans might say he is working "in the tradition." Non-fans (me for one) might say he is latching on to true musical visionaries in an attempt to make up for his own deficit of musical vision. Moran took over Billy Taylor's spot as Jazz Director at the KC, and it seems quite apt to me, since Moran strikes me as a Billy Taylor for our age.

I won't be picking up this new album (I'm allergic to crossover), but I've enjoyed Moran's work in the past. I saw that Anthony Braxton concert in DC as well, and didn't think Moran embarrassed himself. He seemed a bit superfluous, but that may be due at least in part to Braxton's current direction, where the piano does not have much place (it seems, and based on his recent discography and performances).

I have to disagree with you. Being superfluous during a performance, to me, is embarrassing. He had no business on stage then. Is such a performance now a platform for dilettantes? As for piano integration, Braxton, I think, is pretty sympathetic to the piano, since he has composed for, and plays, piano himself. Thank goodness the Moran-Cecil Taylor duo performance (also at KC) never came off, although I was sorely disappointed to miss Cecil.

[kh1958]

Oops - I edited my earlier post rather than quoting it.

I was simply hoping to hear back who the "grating and unoriginal" avant-garde musicians were who put on those depressing shows. Was hoping to get more than the typical broad brush smear of those crazy avant-gardists

Fwiw - I listened closely to Breaking Glass this AM and I am non-plussed by Moran. Not my favorite Trio 3 + recording but them again, I prefer them by a bit without the piano added. I can give them a little push back on adding Moran and Iyer in order to get those two weeks on successive years at Birdland!!

Then again, if some of you were paying attention in the late 90's the trio could barely get a sniff from anything close to a jazz club. So I guess they all had to get over 70 for that to happen!!!!

Okay, if you insist.

I think the worst concert by a name avant-garde player I've ever seen was by Joe McPhee. That was really a terrible experience; I truly hated his trumpet playing. Maybe it was a bad night, I don't know, but I have no interest in investigating further.

Peter Brotzman I didn't like very much either. I will say that he is impressively loud.

However, I'm not really anti-avant garde. So far this year I've seen Bobby Bradford and Bern Nix live. And I'll hopefully see Dave Burrell in a couple of months.

[Steve Reynolds]

Although the music is different, what a shock to put on Oort-Entropy (Barry Guy New Orchestra) with Agusti Fernandez at the piano after listening to Jason Moran.

Moran sounds pretty and melodic for sure, but there is little grit, guts or power. Sounds like a pastiche of a bunch of fine pianists.

Certainly The New Orchestra is not for everyone as it incorporates new music, baroque and free music sensibilities into it's whole - BUT if one wants to hear a truly great pianist deal with very difficult and challenging material - and raise the music's level - listen to that recording. Plus at that time, he was the newest member of the band!!!

If you want more, get the Mad Dogs box and hear how he cuts a swath right inky and through Parker-Guy-Lytton - a trio that has been playing together for 30 years.

Or as expected, don't bother listening and stick to the easier and softer way.

We don't want to hurt anyone's ears.

[mjazzg]

or listen to both Moran and Fernandez/New Orch/Mad Dogs and enjoy them both for what they do differently. Works for me

[xybert]

or listen to both Moran and Fernandez/New Orch/Mad Dogs and enjoy them both for what they do differently. Works for me

Thank you for preserving my sanity!

[Steve Reynolds]

or listen to both Moran and Fernandez/New Orch/Mad Dogs and enjoy them both for what they do differently. Works for me

Thank you for preserving my sanity!

I do understand we all have differences in musical perspectives - I'm just not as attracted to pretty or melodically based playing as I am astringent and precise powerful pianism

[Leeway]

Oops - I edited my earlier post rather than quoting it.

I was simply hoping to hear back who the "grating and unoriginal" avant-garde musicians were who put on those depressing shows. Was hoping to get more than the typical broad brush smear of those crazy avant-gardists

Fwiw - I listened closely to Breaking Glass this AM and I am non-plussed by Moran. Not my favorite Trio 3 + recording but them again, I prefer them by a bit without the piano added. I can give them a little push back on adding Moran and Iyer in order to get those two weeks on successive years at Birdland!!

Then again, if some of you were paying attention in the late 90's the trio could barely get a sniff from anything close to a jazz club. So I guess they all had to get over 70 for that to happen!!!!

Okay, if you insist.

I think the worst concert by a name avant-garde player I've ever seen was by Joe McPhee. That was really a terrible experience; I truly hated his trumpet playing. Maybe it was a bad night, I don't know, but I have no interest in investigating further.

Peter Brotzman I didn't like very much either. I will say that he is impressively loud.

However, I'm not really anti-avant garde. So far this year I've seen Bobby Bradford and Bern Nix live. And I'll hopefully see Dave Burrell in a couple of months.

I'm trying to reconcile what you are saying with what I know about Joe McPhee. I'm trying to figure out if you had a bad night, or if Joe did. I'm trying to figure out if listening to Joe in concert with Evan Parker, a few weeks ago, sitting not more than 5 feet from Joe, who played trumpet and pocket trumpet, played it beautifully and even sublimely, is the same Joe McPhee who was horrible and screechy and incapable of playing trumpet. Certainly, if he was screechy, I would have heard it 5 feet away. I didn't. Certainly, if he was horrible, I can't imagine Evan Parker wanting to play with him. And this has been my experience in going to Joe McPhee performances over the last 10 years, in all sorts of contexts. And I also can't imagine that the Joe McPhee you picture is the same Joe McPhee who made many HatArt classic performances that helped define avant music. I can't imagine it's the same musician who plays on the superb Decoy/Oto albums. So, no, I can't credit your account. It's too bad you won't "investigate"further, as you will miss out on some great music.

[A Lark Ascending]

or listen to both Moran and Fernandez/New Orch/Mad Dogs and enjoy them both for what they do differently. Works for me

Quite.

[mjazzg]

Oops - I edited my earlier post rather than quoting it.

I was simply hoping to hear back who the "grating and unoriginal" avant-garde musicians were who put on those depressing shows. Was hoping to get more than the typical broad brush smear of those crazy avant-gardists

Fwiw - I listened closely to Breaking Glass this AM and I am non-plussed by Moran. Not my favorite Trio 3 + recording but them again, I prefer them by a bit without the piano added. I can give them a little push back on adding Moran and Iyer in order to get those two weeks on successive years at Birdland!!

Then again, if some of you were paying attention in the late 90's the trio could barely get a sniff from anything close to a jazz club. So I guess they all had to get over 70 for that to happen!!!!

Okay, if you insist.

I think the worst concert by a name avant-garde player I've ever seen was by Joe McPhee. That was really a terrible experience; I truly hated his trumpet playing. Maybe it was a bad night, I don't know, but I have no interest in investigating further.

Peter Brotzman I didn't like very much either. I will say that he is impressively loud.

However, I'm not really anti-avant garde. So far this year I've seen Bobby Bradford and Bern Nix live. And I'll hopefully see Dave Burrell in a couple of months.

I'm trying to reconcile what you are saying with what I know about Joe McPhee. I'm trying to figure out if you had a bad night, or if Joe did. I'm trying to figure out if listening to Joe in concert with Evan Parker, a few weeks ago, sitting not more than 5 feet from Joe, who played trumpet and pocket trumpet, played it beautifully and even sublimely, is the same Joe McPhee who was horrible and screechy and incapable of playing trumpet. Certainly, if he was screechy, I would have heard it 5 feet away. I didn't. Certainly, if he was horrible, I can't imagine Evan Parker wanting to play with him. And this has been my experience in going to Joe McPhee performances over the last 10 years, in all sorts of contexts. And I also can't imagine that the Joe McPhee you picture is the same Joe McPhee who made many HatArt classic performances that helped define avant music. I can't imagine it's the same musician who plays on the superb Decoy/Oto albums. So, no, I can't credit your account. It's too bad you won't "investigate"further, as you will miss out on some great music.

Whilst I whoeheartedly agree with your point of view about McPhee's merits. Leeway I do think it's possible for people to hear what we hear as melodic and 'natural' as 'screechy'. My partner and at least a couple of my friends would struggle listening to McPhee on trumpet or saxophone and would very likely describe it as 'screechy' or 'a racket'. Play me a good deal of opera or lieder and I'll be tempted to use the same descriptors - not very considered maybe but that's my reaction. Mind you I can't seem to find when kh1958 describes McPhee as 'screechy',that it was 'hated' yes but for what reason, no

I agree that it's unfortunate that kh1958 didn't enjoy the experience as I would like others to hear and enjoy this music in the way I do too but at least he/she went, sampled it and came away with a conclusion. Many people don't even cross the threshold.

It took me some time to appreciate many of the greats of free music that I now hold so dear and I'm hoping that kh1958 may at some time in the future come back to McPhee and Brotz via a different route and find something of merit. It they don't well it'll be down to the likes of me, you, Steve and Colinmce amongst others to keep flying the flag

Edited September 28, 2014 by mjazzg

[AllenLowe]

to me, Jason plays extremely well on a personal, musical level; it's just that he plays a lot of very dull music. This may seem like a contradiction, and it probably is; but think of all the musicians who did their best work with Mingus and whose own sessions meander. As I've learned as a bandleader, you gotta give musicians something to play that brings the things out in them that need to be brought out. Also, it's appropriate that he plays with Charles Lloyd, who is the master of second-hand creativity.

Edited September 28, 2014 by AllenLowe

[Head Man]

or listen to both Moran and Fernandez/New Orch/Mad Dogs and enjoy them both for what they do differently. Works for me

.... and for me

[kh1958]

To my ears, Moran plays with guts, grit and power. Having a first listen to All Rise right now.

As for Joe McPhee, I just saw him once. I was poised to enjoy the experience, as I bought a ticket and the fellow sitting next to me was raving about how great he was. Whether it was him having a bad night or me being unreceptive or his music not fitting with my tastes, I don't know. Anyway, for now I'll explore other current music.

[kh1958]

Although the music is different, what a shock to put on Oort-Entropy (Barry Guy New Orchestra) with Agusti Fernandez at the piano after listening to Jason Moran.

Moran sounds pretty and melodic for sure, but there is little grit, guts or power. Sounds like a pastiche of a bunch of fine pianists.

Certainly The New Orchestra is not for everyone as it incorporates new music, baroque and free music sensibilities into it's whole - BUT if one wants to hear a truly great pianist deal with very difficult and challenging material - and raise the music's level - listen to that recording. Plus at that time, he was the newest member of the band!!!

If you want more, get the Mad Dogs box and hear how he cuts a swath right inky and through Parker-Guy-Lytton - a trio that has been playing together for 30 years.

Or as expected, don't bother listening and stick to the easier and softer way.

We don't want to hurt anyone's ears.

Well, I prefer more melodic music as a general rule. This is based on my obsessive listening to jazz since 1974, exploring recordings from the beginning of jazz to the present, and attending hundreds of concerts over the last 40 years.

Edited September 28, 2014 by kh1958

[uli]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/29/arts/music/henry-threadgill-festival-at-harlem-stage.html?smid=tw-nytimesmusic&seid=auto

[Leeway]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/29/arts/music/henry-threadgill-festival-at-harlem-stage.html?smid=tw-nytimesmusic&seid=auto

"Curated" that hodgepodge!? I guess in the same way that Stone Cold Creamery "curates" your mix-ins. (What a pretentious cliche. Does this make Moran a curator now?). The nightclub seating concept is straight from the KC Jazz Club. I can see why Threadgill didn't play a note with this mish-mash. That would have been to participate in a travesty of his own work.

[uli]

I didn't listen to all of this but from what I have listened to it does not seem to me that Threadgill considered it a travesty. I would have loved to attend the "hodgepodge"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-85-ucGTp9Q

[Guy Berger]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/29/arts/music/henry-threadgill-festival-at-harlem-stage.html?smid=tw-nytimesmusic&seid=auto

"Curated" that hodgepodge!? I guess in the same way that Stone Cold Creamery "curates" your mix-ins. (What a pretentious cliche. Does this make Moran a curator now?). The nightclub seating concept is straight from the KC Jazz Club. I can see why Threadgill didn't play a note with this mish-mash. That would have been to participate in a travesty of his own work.

OK, we know you don't like JM, but you realize you are giving off a "Get off my lawn, Dennis the Menace" vibe, right?

Edited September 30, 2014 by Guy

[uli]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWFU6JsL9iY

[mjazzg]

Thanks so much for posting that. I just love Threadgill's soundworld and I'm pleased his music's been presented like this

To a non-musician it seems devilishly challenging music to play - with HT there seemingly more so

[Leeway]

[xybert]

[LouisvillePrez]

This thread may have run its course, but I stumbled upon it, and thought I would compose some thoughts – taking the chance to clarify for myself what I think about Jason Moran.

I have always liked Jason Moran – his own CDs, the early things with Greg Osby (Banned in NY, New Directions, Inner Circle), the ones led by Lloyd, and the CDs led by Motian and Byron (a fun version of “In a Silent Way”). And, I think I like him more than similar-aged, highly publicized pianists like Mehldau (who I enjoy, although I don't try to keep up with everything he puts out) and Iyer (he has not done it for me yet, but I haven't listened to him much).

When it comes to his associations with older, long-established artists, I consider it a sign that he still wants to learn and grow as an artist. Even after Ten won tons of awards and even after the MacArthur, he was still playing with Charles Lloyd, and I am glad he did. I have not heard him with Threadgill’s Double-Up group, but I would like to, and I thought the recent tribute show in NYC looked like it would be great fun.

As far as Moran's appreciation for the AG is concerned, and what it means for his music, I just know that I like his playing. “Booker’s Garden” from Rabo de Nube and “I Shall Be Released” from Hagar’s Song are two of my favorite performances in recent years.

All this being said, I don’t think I’m in for the new one.