Jason Moran

[jazzbo]

I look at this particular one this way: I'm a big Waller fan. I've heard quite a few very reverential and conventional tributes. . . some are excellent, most are okay. This one takes a different slant, and I'm eager to hear it.

I don't listen to the radio so I don't know how NPR presents things and can't get upset about it. I know that the jazz I really love is a museum thing now, not a living thing that will grow on into the future. A lot of the "now" jazz. . . just doesn't do that much for me. So I don't have a dog in this hunt. . .just looking forward to hearing what Jason Moran and company will do with the Waller material, and allowing myself the room to be pleasantly surprised.

[JohnJ]

Five star review in today's Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/sep/11/jason-moran-meshell-ndegeocello-all-rise-a-joyful-elegy-review

[jlhoots]

I read the DB article on Moran.

Frankly I'm more interested in the Selma project.

[Leeway]

Five star review in today's Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/sep/11/jason-moran-meshell-ndegeocello-all-rise-a-joyful-elegy-review

NPR, ironically, is less enthusiastic:

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=350633603

In my view, Moran did his best work with Greg Osby, and Osby did his best work with Moran. I don't know if they accentuated each other's positives, or nullified each other's negatives.

Moran has always had a habit of "cultivating" older, even legendary jazz figures, from Sam Rivers (almost always cited when Moran is mentioned) through Cecil Taylor (Moran tried to play duet with Cecil (!!) at a Kennedy Center concert, which fortunately was cancelled), Anthony Braxton (Moran inserted himself in the ensemble at a Kennedy Center performance, with ugly results), and now Fats Waller. Fans might say he is working "in the tradition." Non-fans (me for one) might say he is latching on to true musical visionaries in an attempt to make up for his own deficit of musical vision. Moran took over Billy Taylor's spot as Jazz Director at the KC, and it seems quite apt to me, since Moran strikes me as a Billy Taylor for our age.

[jazzbo]

I've listened to this a few times. I like it. Not head over heels about it but I liked listening to it and I'll spin it again.

[colinmce]

I think that accusation is maybe a tad dastardly, but it does seem like Moran has taken leave of developing his music in favor of other pursuits. I suppose the world needs Billy Taylors, too.

Which is maybe to say that I think at one time he had a very precise and exciting musical vision that seems to have been since abandoned.

[xybert]

The album with Sam Rivers is mainly cited by non-fans, i find. The broken record whenever Moran comes up is: "I'm not a fan but i don't mind the album with Sam Rivers, but that's mainly due to Sam Rivers." I don't get why Moran is getting singled out for playing with older cats in a negative or cynical way, but hey, i'm not an expert on him, maybe he is a complete tool.

I don't know, as i say i'm not an expert on Moran, haven't heard every album, haven't read every interview or seen him perform live. But i rate him, based on what i've heard of his music. He's got a flavour i really dig, a distinctive flavour (like it or not) and in my opinion that's rare among jazz pianists.

All Rise, the Fats Waller album, the album with R&B-ish singing, on the 'revamped' Blue Note label etc... i'll be pushing shiz uphill with a sharp stick trying to defend it here, but i like it for what it is. Like it or not i wouldn't write off Moran's entire musical vision based purely off All Rise: although you may feel that there are other legit reasons to write him off i don't think that this one album is good reason. I think he's done excellent stuff over the last five years: Ten is one of my favourtie piano trio albums, the album with Trio 3 was excellent (there he goes again trying to cynically elevate himself by associating with greats when we all know that musically he can't hang ), he played excellently on that album with Eric Revis and Vandermark et al even if the album overall was a bit hit and miss for me... then there's the work with Charles Lloyd where i have to admit i find his flavour to be a bit muted but still... meh that's probably a bit of a down note to finish on ha ha.

Anyway...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0CYJNw9YJQ

[xybert]

I also think it's a bit rough to single Moran out for doing a tribute album (of sorts) to Fats Waller, saying that he is "latching on to true musical visionaries in an attempt to make up for his own deficit of musical vision". Maybe if he formed a group dedicated to playing the music of Steve Lacy, or a ton of other projects i could cite, it would be cool? In before "yeah but those albums are done tastefully and this is terrible!" That's not the issue here, i believe.

[Leeway]

Why not an album dedicated to playing the music of Jason Moran?

The guy is constantly hanging his hat on somebody else's tree rack. Singled out? He makes his own case.

I forgot to mention that he has some kind of talk/play gig with Henry Threadgill in NYC. What is his connection to Threadgill or Threadgill's music? I can't be sure if it's not much, or none. But hey, I'm sure it will make for some good (N)PR!

What makes him think he can schedule Cecil at the KC, then schedule himself as a duo partner? Do you seriously think he's of the calibre of CT, even an 80+ year old CT?

Why does he think he has the prerogative to schedule Braxton at the KC (and I do give him credit for that), then insert himself as the piano player in the ensemble, only to realize he was way out of his league.

How much collaborative work did he do with Sam Rivers after that inaugural album? With Braxton? Cecil? Threadgill?

Before the Waller album, I believe he went 4 years without an album of his own (excluding the Lloyd and Trio 3 albums). I infer from that he didn't have much to say of his own.

These instant hook-ups strike me as more resume buffing than artistic quest. The guy's earlier albums were promising, not trying to deny that. But now he comes off like, if not the Billy Taylor, the George Plimpton, maybe even the Ryan Seacrest of mod jazz pianists, playing the next high profile gig, then moving on.

[mjazzg]

That's a compelling case when stated like that Leeway but I still feel it's not wholly convincing. (you can add a Blue Note 75th birthday bash at London Jazz Festival too!)

I just wonder when does 'learning from the elders' become 'riding on their coat-tails'? OK, so programming himself to play with Braxton and Taylor may have proved a musical mismatch but might not his motivation have been to play with a couple of heroes? He had the chance and many others might have tested their mettle in such collaborations give the opportunity. Couldn't we see this as a brave attempt to engage with undeniable Masters and learn with and from them in the most testing of contexts - I can't quite see how doing this can imply he therefore think's he's of their stature, as you suggest.

If you count the Trio 3 collaboration it seems that we've only got four collaborations that are causing disquiet - Rivers, Threadgill, Cecil and Trio 3 - in how many years? 'Black Stars was 2000. Hell, if I were a musician of Moran's generation I'd be jumping at opportunities to engage with that generation before it was too late.

I think the Waller album is a different fish altogether (sits with his Monk project). I wasn't overly surprised as I've always heard elements of earlier piano styles in Moran's playing from the start. Here, as with Monk, I see he's making a tribute to an important influence. OK, not necessarily a ground breaking step but not a crime . That it's got Ndegeocello and vocals and leads with a groove isn't also very surprisng. This is the pianist who covered Afrika Bambaata after all (to thrilling effect) on the same album as James P. Johnson, twelve years ago - so the variety of influence (and acknowledgement thereof/tribute) was there then.

He hasn't released a leader date for four years since hooking up with Lloyd for sure but didn't Jarrett go three years or so without a leader release when he was in the same piano chair? I'd need to check to be certain

Now I'm a Moran fan (you may have guessed) and think Bandwagon are a fantastic live band and have bought every album and only really been disappointed in 'Same Mother' but I don't want to come across as offended fanboy.

Case for the Defence rests, your Honour

Edited September 25, 2014 by mjazzg

[Guy Berger]

Aside from his work with Sam Rivers, I have also enjoyed his appearances with Charles Lloyd, Paul Motian and Bunky Green. Great stuff.

The complaints about "he does too much work with older musicians" is an interesting mirror image of the more common kvetch, "jazz musicians don't apprentice enough as sidemen anymore."

[Leeway]

I think I acknowledged that if one is a fan, then Moran is connecting "with the tradition," and if one is not, he looks like an opportunist, riding the coattails of bigger and more substantial names. As the evidence accumulates, and the pattern has developed, I've had to question what Moran is about.

Would anyone argue that Moran is of equal artistic stature with these artists we cited? Who benefits the most in the relationships? What is the fruit of these hook-ups? For me, the answers are: No, Moran, and nothing. That adds up to a big question mark to me as to intent and integrity. Not to mention

a penchant for razzle-dazzle PR gigs that go nowhere, and one starts to question what is going on. I'm just wondering, to paraphrase Gertrude Stein, if there is a there, there.

[kh1958]

Superior or not, I have no idea, but I certainly prefer listening to Jason Moran's music over Anthony Braxton or Cecil Taylor. And my live music experiences with Moran were far more enjoyable to me than my live music experiences with Braxton or Cecil Taylor. At the Fats Waller concert, his enthusiasm seemed genuine. The level of negativity on this board towards any current non-avante garde artist is sometimes dismaying.

[Steve Reynolds]

One good thing about this discussion is that it will prompt me to listen more closely to the Trio 3 recording to see if I hear anything I've missed something whenever, over the years, I've listened to Jason Moran.

To be very honest, I've never heard anything that inspired me to listen further. Maybe I'm missing something but whenever one of these musicians goes the route of the newest recording, any shot in finding one's voice and vision is long gone. So maybe for my tastes, there was never much there in the first place - although hearing some positive comments above from board members I highly respect has me questioning what I've heard - so therefore that's why I'm going to give Breaking Glass some more attention.

I did hear the trio disc with Motian and Potter on ECM - then again, I barely made it through the disc, I was so bored.

And I'm no fan of Charles Lloyd, so I've never heard any of that collaboration

Sorry to go starving artist on you all, but I'm more impressed with the musician who plays what they want, with choose who they play with - and do that all the time.

Serious musicians who play 100% for the music. Value judgement about Moran? Sure Justified? Who knows? It's my viewpoint.

When it quacks like a duck.....

Will he go FUNK next?!?!?

Of course, the argument is always that he made the record cuz that's what he wanted to do - or don't give the guy a hard time as he deserves a few accolades from someone other than the hardcore music fan - or whatever BS we always hear when someone goes the soft, easy way.

And, No, I have no interest or plans on listening.

Standing on a Whale Fishing for Minnows

Edited September 25, 2014 by Steve Reynolds

[Leeway]

Superior or not, I have no idea, but I certainly prefer listening to Jason Moran's music over Anthony Braxton or Cecil Taylor. And my live music experiences with Moran were far more enjoyable to me than my live music experiences with Braxton or Cecil Taylor. At the Fats Waller concert, his enthusiasm seemed genuine. The level of negativity on this board towards any current non-avante garde artist is sometimes dismaying.

But doesn't Moran fancy himself something of an avant musicians? - Rivers, Braxton, Taylor, Threadgill, Oliver Lake, et al? He certainly seems to like getting into their performances. Sorry you don't enjoy these types of performances, but I can understand that, since sitting through straight-ahead stuff depresses me. To each his own, and no argument there. As for the Board, I more than suspect the advantage is towards the mainstream, although I think the tilt has not been as great as formerly.

[kh1958]

Superior or not, I have no idea, but I certainly prefer listening to Jason Moran's music over Anthony Braxton or Cecil Taylor. And my live music experiences with Moran were far more enjoyable to me than my live music experiences with Braxton or Cecil Taylor. At the Fats Waller concert, his enthusiasm seemed genuine. The level of negativity on this board towards any current non-avante garde artist is sometimes dismaying.

But doesn't Moran fancy himself something of an avant musicians? - Rivers, Braxton, Taylor, Threadgill, Oliver Lake, et al? He certainly seems to like getting into their performances. Sorry you don't enjoy these types of performances, but I can understand that, since sitting through straight-ahead stuff depresses me. To each his own, and no argument there. As for the Board, I more than suspect the advantage is towards the mainstream, although I think the tilt has not been as great as formerly.

I think he models himself on Jaki Byard, a mostly inside-modestly outside type of musician schooled in the mainstream tradition.

I've seen some pretty depressing avant garde jazz performances--almost no audience, the venue a dump, the performance grating and unoriginal. But I have seen everyone you mention live, and would do so again with the opportunity.

[Clunky]

I'm going to have to re-read this thread and revisit any Moran discs in my collection. I had no idea he was so controversial. I really not listened closely enough to him but my overall impression was he was pretty decent player but one I would struggle to pick out in a BFT.

[Steve Reynolds]

Superior or not, I have no idea, but I certainly prefer listening to Jason Moran's music over Anthony Braxton or Cecil Taylor. And my live music experiences with Moran were far more enjoyable to me than my live music experiences with Braxton or Cecil Taylor. At the Fats Waller concert, his enthusiasm seemed genuine. The level of negativity on this board towards any current non-avante garde artist is sometimes dismaying.

But doesn't Moran fancy himself something of an avant musicians? - Rivers, Braxton, Taylor, Threadgill, Oliver Lake, et al? He certainly seems to like getting into their performances. Sorry you don't enjoy these types of performances, but I can understand that, since sitting through straight-ahead stuff depresses me. To each his own, and no argument there. As for the Board, I more than suspect the advantage is towards the mainstream, although I think the tilt has not been as great as formerly.

I think he models himself on Jaki Byard, a mostly inside-modestly outside type of musician schooled in the mainstream tradition.

I've seen some pretty depressing avant garde jazz performances--almost no audience, the venue a dump, the performance grating and unoriginal. But I have seen everyone you mention live, and would do so again with the opportunity.I'm very curious who the musicians who played in the depressing avant-garde performances. Some "avant-garde" jazz musicians are not avant-garde in that what they play isn't so original. I'm very curious who these people were.

Fwiw - the size of the audience has no bearing for me. 1 of the 3 or 4 best sets of music I've ever witnessed was in front of about 18 or 20 people.

As far as the venues, they is what they is.

This is about musical quality, not how many in the crowd or if the served fancy sparkling cider.

Am I missing something?

I'm dissapointed not to hear who the "grating and unoriginal" avant-garde musicians were.

Not that I expected a response.

A broad brush is the easier response, I suppose.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Steve Reynolds

[xybert]

I think I acknowledged that if one is a fan, then Moran is connecting "with the tradition," and if one is not, he looks like an opportunist, riding the coattails of bigger and more substantial names. As the evidence accumulates, and the pattern has developed, I've had to question what Moran is about.

Would anyone argue that Moran is of equal artistic stature with these artists we cited? Who benefits the most in the relationships? What is the fruit of these hook-ups? For me, the answers are: No, Moran, and nothing. That adds up to a big question mark to me as to intent and integrity. Not to mention

a penchant for razzle-dazzle PR gigs that go nowhere, and one starts to question what is going on. I'm just wondering, to paraphrase Gertrude Stein, if there is a there, there.

There's so much to address in this thread but i don't know where to begin but what you're saying here is a good nutshell for me to launch from.

See, the thing about 'connecting with the tradition' does not exist, for me. It's just an album by Jason Moran, i either like it or i don't. I couldn't care less about Jason Moran or anyone else connecting with the tradition. But essentially what it comes down to is if one is a fan then there's no problem with this album (although i'm sure there will be many fans of Moran who give this one a miss) and if one is not a fan then he looks like an opportunist, riding the coat tails etc etc.

But essentially i think what it seems to come down to is whether Jason Moran is the real deal or not. If he is, then all his activities are cool. If not, then he's the jazz Ryan Seacrest FFS. So who says whether he's the real deal or not? Well, apparently he's proven that he's not the real deal by recording this album.

With regards to the Rivers, Taylor, Braxton, Threadgill 'incidents', i guess we'd need to ask them how they feel about their associations with him. Do i think he is their equal? No. Does he have to be? No.

Not being prolific in terms of releasing albums under your own name does not make you a lesser artist (see Threadgill).

[Rooster_Ties]

I've really liked everything Moran's done up through about 2005, but I've been less drawn to his output since "Same Mother".

Agree that *everything* Greg Osby did that included Moran in his band was better than anything Osby did prior (pre-Moran), or since (post-Moran). Likewise, every Moran leader-date during his time with Osby (1997-2002) and shortly after, is really his strongest work (at least to my way of thinking). They really were spectacular together, and I really wish they would record together again.

But, the notion that Moran is trying to somehow 'ride on the coattails' of these other avant-garde guys seems pretty absurd to me -- like that's any sort or fast-track to fame, fortune, or credibility.

Moran seems like anything other than someone trying to take any easy ways out -- and that he's followed the path he has, playing the music he has, and found the success he has -- would all seem to be to his credit. Would that Andrew Hill had had more chutzpah and ability to sell himself, in the sort of way Moran has.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Rooster_Ties

[Leeway]

But, the notion that Moran is trying to somehow 'ride on the coattails' of these other avant-garde guys seems pretty absurd to me -- like that's any sort or fast-track to fame, fortune, or credibility.

Moran seems like anything other than someone trying to take any easy ways out -- and that he's followed the path he has, playing the music he has, and found the success he has -- would all seem to be to his credit. Would that Andrew Hill had had more chutzpah and ability to sell himself, in the sort of way Moran has.

Hill had something more than Chutzpah and an ability to sell himself--your description fits Moran so beautifully!- he had integrity, he had his own music, he had his own vision, and didn't need to flit from PR-friendly gig to PR-friendly gig.

[Guy Berger]

I'm going to have to re-read this thread and revisit any Moran discs in my collection. I had no idea he was so controversial.

Same here.

FWIW I only have one of his discs as a leader (BLACK STARS, which is terrific) and don't really have any plans to pick up the latest one.

[Guy Berger]

But, the notion that Moran is trying to somehow 'ride on the coattails' of these other avant-garde guys seems pretty absurd to me -- like that's any sort or fast-track to fame, fortune, or credibility.

Indeed, Occam's Razor would suggest that he plays with these guys because... he is interested in their music.

We can debate whether the artistic fruits of his engagement with these veterans are positive (on the discs I have heard, it is; maybe elsewhere it is disappointing or a disaster) but the accusations of venality are bizarre.

Also, with the exception of Lloyd and maybe Motian, it's more likely that the "exposure benefit" was running from Moran to the veteran artist.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Guy

[jazzbo]

Superior or not, I have no idea, but I certainly prefer listening to Jason Moran's music over Anthony Braxton or Cecil Taylor. And my live music experiences with Moran were far more enjoyable to me than my live music experiences with Braxton or Cecil Taylor. At the Fats Waller concert, his enthusiasm seemed genuine. The level of negativity on this board towards any current non-avante garde artist is sometimes dismaying.

But doesn't Moran fancy himself something of an avant musicians? - Rivers, Braxton, Taylor, Threadgill, Oliver Lake, et al? He certainly seems to like getting into their performances. Sorry you don't enjoy these types of performances, but I can understand that, since sitting through straight-ahead stuff depresses me. To each his own, and no argument there. As for the Board, I more than suspect the advantage is towards the mainstream, although I think the tilt has not been as great as formerly.

I think he models himself on Jaki Byard, a mostly inside-modestly outside type of musician schooled in the mainstream tradition.

I've seen some pretty depressing avant garde jazz performances--almost no audience, the venue a dump, the performance grating and unoriginal. But I have seen everyone you mention live, and would do so again with the opportunity.

Good observation.

I personally think Moran is as real as a real deal. And I'm liking this album, I've spun it four times now.

[Hoppy T. Frog]

Five star review in today's Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/sep/11/jason-moran-meshell-ndegeocello-all-rise-a-joyful-elegy-review

NPR, ironically, is less enthusiastic:

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=350633603

In my view, Moran did his best work with Greg Osby, and Osby did his best work with Moran. I don't know if they accentuated each other's positives, or nullified each other's negatives.

Moran has always had a habit of "cultivating" older, even legendary jazz figures, from Sam Rivers (almost always cited when Moran is mentioned) through Cecil Taylor (Moran tried to play duet with Cecil (!!) at a Kennedy Center concert, which fortunately was cancelled), Anthony Braxton (Moran inserted himself in the ensemble at a Kennedy Center performance, with ugly results), and now Fats Waller. Fans might say he is working "in the tradition." Non-fans (me for one) might say he is latching on to true musical visionaries in an attempt to make up for his own deficit of musical vision. Moran took over Billy Taylor's spot as Jazz Director at the KC, and it seems quite apt to me, since Moran strikes me as a Billy Taylor for our age.

I won't be picking up this new album (I'm allergic to crossover), but I've enjoyed Moran's work in the past. I saw that Anthony Braxton concert in DC as well, and didn't think Moran embarrassed himself. He seemed a bit superfluous, but that may be due at least in part to Braxton's current direction, where the piano does not have much place (it seems, and based on his recent discography and performances).