The influence of Cannonball Adderley's post-1965 music on Miles Da

[Guy Berger]

I've made a bunch of Cannonball acquisitions recently and one thing that is becoming increasingly obvious to me is the strong influence Cannonball's music post-1965 had on the course Miles's music took from late '67 onward. I've read enough interviews, articles to know this was the case -- but as a listener this link had not been clear until recently (beyond "Joe Zawinul played an electric piano on 'Mercy Mercy Mercy' ").

The live concert Money in the Pocket or a tune like "74 Miles Away" really hammer this point home. There's a mix of populism and pushing-the-envelope experimentation on these recordings that, while not fully realized, must have been intriguing to Davis. In some ways the music itself sounds similar.

The Lloyd quartet was obviously influenced by Cannonball's group and from interviews as well as personnel it is clear that Miles was listening to the group. AFAIK he was not close personally to Lloyd in the same way as he was to Cannonball and I don't quite hear the same musical similarities.

Anyway, just throwing some half-baked ideas into the mix and curious to see what others think. I guess I will have to pick up Domination because I want to hear what "Experience in E" sounds like.

Guy

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I'm not familiar with Miles Davis' work, so I can't comment to the point. But I have the 3 Cannonball albums you mention, and funnily enough have listened to them all in the last few weeks, and I'd say that, to me, Cannonball's music didn't really change much between the band's early work on Riverside (eg "In San Francisco", "Dirty blues", "Lighthouse") and this material (or "Country preacher" or "Walk tall"). I expect I'm listening from a different perspective, so I'll be interested to see what others say about this.

MG

[Tom Storer]

I'm not familiar with Miles Davis' work

[Parkertown]

Yeah...what's up with that?

[sjarrell]

I'm not a big Miles guy myself- but back to the thread: did Axelrod produce those Adderley records?

Edit: And while I'm familiar with Miles' stuff, my familiarity stops completely after In a Silent Way. Is that what you meant there, MG?

Edited April 20, 2008 by sjarrell

[JSngry]

Zawinul's on record as saying that Cannonball's band of the time was playing hipper music than Miles'. You can allow for some (lots) of ego in that statement, but the fact remains that Zawinul himself was contributing not only the hit "funky" tunes, but also some "progressive" material as well, material which the band, tight working unit that it was, attacked head on. Zawinul's also on record as saying that Nat was somewhat against the more forward stuff and was always lobbying Cannonball to keep it more inside, but Cannonball, shrewd businessman/artist that he was, saw the merit oin both directions and let both have their place in the overall presentation. (and btw, Nat still used Joe on his Live At Memory Lane album for Atlantic, where in "Painted Desert" we have a tune that sounds like a daguerreotype of an ancestor of something off of Mysterious Traveler. Ans also btw, Nat made that wacky Zodiac Sex record for Capitol with all the Miles-ish electronics, so either he came around, was a shameless trendmonger, or else the truth was somewhere in the middle)

I think it's safe to say that Cannonball's band in the 60s (and even into the early 70s) was not necessarily represented on record in a way that fully reflected the scope of what they threw down with over the course of a ful evening in a club. As far as how much direct influence the had on Miles, I don't know and don't want to speculate. But I do think it safe to assume that Miles was paying attention in general terms to anybody/anything that was both "musically valid" and was drawing crowds and selling records. We tend to forget today that the records of the Second Great Quintet didn't sell for shit (relatively speaking) in their time, and from what I understand, club dates were all over the place in terms of how well they drew. I do think that Miles, not just out of "vanity" but also as a matter of personal temperament/philosophy had a need to engage "popular culture" on his own terms as a means of asserting his "entitlement" to not be shut out of same. So Cannonball's mixture of readily accessible funky tunes mixed with the more challenging stuff was not only selling records and drawing well in clubs but was actually able to have some "hits" (and one actual HIT) with that mix, yeah, I think that Miles noticed, and I think it's not for nothing that he went after Zawinul when (and for what) he did.

[captainwrong]

I'm not a big Miles guy myself- but back to the thread: did Axelrod produce those Adderley records?

IIRC, Axe produced most, if not all Cannonball's Capitol albums and on into the Fantasy years. Money In The Pocket, I'm not sure about, but I'm pretty sure Domination he did. I know he did Love, Sex and the Zodiac.

[Chuck Nessa]

This does indicate the money/sales influence on "art". "You can do what you feel or you can do what you feel sells."

I am sure Miles was jealous of 'Ball's sales and (more importantly) the attention.

[Rooster_Ties]

"You can do what you feel or you can do what you feel sells."

Or perhaps a few -- like Miles -- can do some of both, at the same time.

[jazzbo]

I know what Miles would say about this. . . .

And doesn't he owe Cannon ten bucks?

Edited April 21, 2008 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

"You can do what you feel or you can do what you feel sells."

Or perhaps a few -- like Miles -- can do some of both, at the same time.

Or maybe for some people the two are not always distinctly/intrinsically separate impulses...

[ghost of miles]

FWIW John Handy says that mutual friends told him Miles was listening closely to Handy's mid-1960s Monterey quintet as well.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Edit: And while I'm familiar with Miles' stuff, my familiarity stops completely after In a Silent Way. Is that what you meant there, MG?

Yes, I bought a few of his albums in the early/mid sixties - by 1970, poverty had forced me to flog them all, one of those decisions I don't regret.

MG

[sjarrell]

Edit: And while I'm familiar with Miles' stuff, my familiarity stops completely after In a Silent Way. Is that what you meant there, MG?

Yes, I bought a few of his albums in the early/mid sixties - by 1970, poverty had forced me to flog them all, one of those decisions I don't regret.

MG

I've shed lots of Miles too, but still have the Prestige box and the Trane Columbia one. Don't listen to them much, though.

I wonder if Clifford would have gone electric?

Edit: The threadkilling comment above was in jest. I'm really, really glad that there's not something called "Electric Brownie" out there...

Edited April 28, 2008 by sjarrell

[Roundsound]

Interestingly I happened to be listening to Cannonball's collaboration with Oliver Nelson. Except for 1 cut, it is 1965. The 20 minute cut from 1970, obviously taken from another session, is much more out than I personally have ever heard from Cannonball. It is part mood piece, part screechy playing (in a good way), and harking from In a Silent Way. The cut goes in and out in different direction s, now a mood part, now a groove part with electric piano etc. Quite remarkable.

[clifford_thornton]

As far as how much direct influence the had on Miles, I don't know and don't want to speculate. But I do think it safe to assume that Miles was paying attention in general terms to anybody/anything that was both "musically valid" and was drawing crowds and selling records. We tend to forget today that the records of the Second Great Quintet didn't sell for shit (relatively speaking) in their time, and from what I understand, club dates were all over the place in terms of how well they drew. I do think that Miles, not just out of "vanity" but also as a matter of personal temperament/philosophy had a need to engage "popular culture" on his own terms as a means of asserting his "entitlement" to not be shut out of same.

I can get behind this.