The Skill of Album Track Order

[reg]

Hi

Do people think that there is a skill/art in deciding the track order for albums?

Can it make or break an album? turn a great album into a classic.

Do the Musicians have much say in track order or is it mainly the record producers?

or does it depend who the Musician is. Miles picked his track order? Somebody like Sonny Clark would have less say?

I was thinking about this listening to Lee Morgan's Sidewinder. Sidewinder is first track. does this overshadow the rest of the album?

Same with Moanin'. Would it help the other tracks and the album as a whole if title track was the 3rd or 4th in the track order, Like The Gigolo?

More of a whole album instead of 2 parts, title track then rest of album that could be a bit forgotten? (most people probably don't see it this way)

Any album you wished the order was different? Any albums that you think order is just perfect? Balance is right.

[Jim Alfredson]

Most classic jazz albums were programmed by the producer, I believe. I don't think the song order of those types of records is as important as other kinds of music, say progressive rock of the 70s! Mainly because a lot of those records and just "jam sessions" of sorts. And of course with CDs and mp3s, you can make your own order anyway.

One thing that does bug me about re-issues is when they put the alternate takes of a tune right after the main album take. Talk about breaking the flow.

It's something that's been on my mind recently because we're trying to pin down a good order for the next organissimo CD.

[jon abbey]

Do people think that there is a skill/art in deciding the track order for albums?

Can it make or break an album? turn a great album into a classic.

hugely important and almost never perfectly executed, it's a real focus of mine as a producer.

[mgraham333]

You could always consult Nick Hornby's rules for making a mix-tape from High Fidelity....

Rob:

To me, making a tape is like writing a letter. There's a lot of erasing and rethinking and starting again. A good compilation tape, like breaking up, is hard to do. You've got to kick off with a corker, to hold the attention (I started with "Got to Get You Off My Mind," but then realized that she might not get any further than track one, side one if I delivered what she wanted straightaway, so I buried it in the middle of side two), and then you've got to up it a notch, or cool it a notch, and you can't have white music and black music together, unless the white music sounds like black music, and you can't have two tracks by the same artist side by side, unless you've done the whole thing in pairs and...oh, there are loads of rules.

[Larry Kart]

I'm pretty sure Chuck Nessa has some thoughts about this. I recall a post of his about how Clark Terry's "In Orbit," with Monk, didn't have the impact it could have, as fine as it is, because the track order was not what it should have been. On the other hand, the track order on Warne Marsh's "All Music" (Nessa) is perfect IMO.

[Dave James]

Hugely important, indeed. There absolutely has to be a flow to an album. For instance, no one would put two ballads one right after the other. That's easy. It's making sense out of what's left that can draw the line between the merely good and the very good or excellent.

I've never produced a record, but when I was doing jazz on radio, I would spend hours putting together my shows trying to achieve just the right dynamic. I don't believe everyone has a talent for this and that's why some albums (or radio shows) seem to work better than others, even though the overall quality of the material taken as a whole, isn't that different.

Up over and out.

[BillF]

When I used to buy Blue Note LPs in the sixties, I noticed that Track1 Side1 was invariably something with a heavily accentuated back beat. Recently I read Richard Cook's book on Blue Note Records which confirmed that this track-placing strategy was an attempt by Alfred Lion to score juke box hits and, with things like "The Sidewinder", he sometimes succeeded!

[Guest Bill Barton]

This is definitely an interesting idea for a thread. In a way, it also ties into the "peaks and valleys" concept of putting together a radio show as Dave already pointed out. A segue from a burner to a ballad doesn't usually work, there needs to be some sort of transition. The classic Blue Notes had that kind of thematic continuity more than most of the new recordings that I've heard, balancing up-tempo pieces with Latin-rhythm pieces with ballads, etc. One of the new releases that has struck me as particularly well-programmed is Jane Ira Bloom's Mental Weather. And the MP3 "concert" style uninterrupted file included on this disc as a bonus is a wonderful idea that was discussed briefly here.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Bill Barton

[bertrand]

Jackie McLean seems to imply in the liner notes of Destination...Out! that it was his idea to open the record with a ballad.

Works perfectly.

Bertrand.

[Shawn]

I'm pretty sure Chuck Nessa has some thoughts about this. I recall a post of his about how Clark Terry's "In Orbit," with Monk, didn't have the impact it could have, as fine as it is, because the track order was not what it should have been.....

I remember reading that as well, I've been curious ever since to see the track order that Chuck prefers...cause I want to try listening to it that way!

[BillF]

When I used to buy Blue Note LPs in the sixties, I noticed that Track1 Side1 was invariably something with a heavily accentuated back beat. Recently I read Richard Cook's book on Blue Note Records which confirmed that this track-placing strategy was an attempt by Alfred Lion to score juke box hits and, with things like "The Sidewinder", he sometimes succeeded!

Further thoughts on this .... This track-placing strategy will also have increased the sale of albums, as Side 1 Track 1 would have appealed to a much larger contingent than the other "straight jazz" tracks. And it was common practice at the time in record stores - in the U.K. at least - to let potential buyers hear a little of the album. Inevitably, this sample was from the beginning of the album - Side 1 Track 1. Use of the autochange more or less ensured this.

[White Lightning]

I also think that a 2 sides, 40 min. LP can flow more naturally that, say a 60min CD.

[A Lark Ascending]

I also think that a 2 sides, 40 min. LP can flow more naturally that, say a 60min CD.

To my mind, that's the only disadvantage of the CD over LP.

Programming over two 20 min LP sides gave you the equivalent of two acts, both of a length where the average listener could sustain concentration. There were four points where maximum impact could be made - the start and end of each side.

Programming over a 60+ span is much harder. Even the most focused listener finds it hard to maintain concentration that long.

In some respect, the order of tracks becomes even more important with CD. I'm not sure it ever compensate for the natural pause of the LP side change.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[marcello]

The artists that I know, spend considerable time and effort on the track sequence.

CDs of more than 60 minutes can be a bore unless it's the work of genius, which of course is rare.

Five or so minutes less can mean a better cd.

Cut out that last marginal tune!

Most cds can use both less music and better programing to make listening a experience.

Most let their egos get in the way and can't listen to thier work with any objectivity so I've been to little get togethers where such matters are discussed with several artists/friends listening and giving opinions.

[michel1969]

I also think that a 2 sides, 40 min. LP can flow more naturally that, say a 60min CD.

Title order has an importance, and there are two things i hate with the CD's :

1 - CD's are too long : 60 or 70 mn of minutes is far too much for me, i do not not really listen the whole album carefully. That's why i often listen in random order (otherwise i would only really listen the first tracks). By doing this, anyway i break the carefully chosen order of the songs. Not very satisfactory. The 40mn format of the vinyl was the best way to enjoy music, IMO.

2 - There another nasty habit on reissuing the vinyl album on CD : to insert the alternate trake just after the master take. This breaks the continuum of the album. I don't reallylike alternate take : it is like visiting the kitchen of the restaurant. If the artitst has chosen the take, he had good reason to do so. I understand anyway the historical value of those alternate takes.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

A few more hints from experienced hands - either producers or radio people - would be very welcome. I'm presently wrestling with the track order of a future BFT

At the moment, I'm just trying to put myself in the position of someone hearing the stuff for the first time. But that's hard if you're familiar with the music yourself.

MG

[jon abbey]

actually a CD gives you a lot more leeway to make a stronger overall statement, assuming you have the material. my favorite Ersts (Duos for Doris, Good Morning Good Night, between), are all long double CDs, in the 100-140 minute range.

[JSngry]

Programming an album is not unlike programming a set. Some people aim to simply/objectively "present material", while others try to use the time to "tell a story",

[paul secor]

Programming an album is not unlike programming a set. Some people aim to simply/objectively "present material", while others try to use the time to "tell a story",

That makes sense - & it seems that either way can work.

[Chuck Nessa]

Saw the thread and have a bunch of things to say but I'm really preoccupied with other stuff at the minute. Just want to add there were technical considerations with lps - inner groove distortion on full sides, etc. I always spent hours and hours programming lps. Cds are a different animal. I always thonght long cds should be programmed as one would plan 2 sets. I have spent about 6 months worrying about the programming of my cd reissue of Roscoe Mitchell's Nonaah. More to follow.

[Teasing the Korean]

When I buy a new album that I've never heard before, I typically spin Side 2 first. Not sure why.

So much for track order.

[captainwrong]

The first thing that came to mind with this topic was Giant Steps. To this day, I can not listen to the Heavyweight Champion set with out feeling a bit disorientated around those sessions. That LP, patched together as it was, just works for me in a major way. Even hearing those tunes in context with their sessions just sounds weird to me.

The thing is, I don't know if that's due to some brilliant programing or just having heard the LP often before the complete sessions.

Also, I think Bev has some great thoughts on the whole LP and CD thing in this regard. I was at the tail end of people who grew up with LPs (of course, one could argue there's more new vinyl out there now than there has been for at least 15 years, but I digress) and cassettes as the primary media for music. So, yeah, that whole ebb and flow of a 20 min. per side LP just feels right to me in a way that modern, longer is better, CDs just still haven't felt the same. Though I did notice the Amy Winehouse album does a good job of hitting the points of impact (more notable on the vinyl obviously) to cite a recent example of someone getting it right, IMO.

[A Lark Ascending]

Some performers have tried to present a CD in two 'sets' or more. Several of Richard Thompson's and the last Robert Wyatt, for example. Though I'm too lazy to set the CD player to just play those sections.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I have spent about 6 months worrying about the programming of my cd reissue of Roscoe Mitchell's Nonaah.

Ah, so it's OK for me to spend the next ten worrying about the BFT programming Though whether it'll make any discernable difference...

MG

[BillF]

I also think that a 2 sides, 40 min. LP can flow more naturally that, say a 60min CD.

Title order has an importance, and there are two things i hate with the CD's :

1 - CD's are too long : 60 or 70 mn of minutes is far too much for me, i do not not really listen the whole album carefully. That's why i often listen in random order (otherwise i would only really listen the first tracks). By doing this, anyway i break the carefully chosen order of the songs. Not very satisfactory. The 40mn format of the vinyl was the best way to enjoy music, IMO.

I'm just musing on these wise words as I listen to Vol 1 of Jazz Messengers at Cafe Bohemia. This CD is going to last for 64 minutes, a totally different experience from the 20 minutes or so of the original LP side and inviting listening strategies of the sort Michel describes.