The Chicago music scene in the 60s/70s

[Free For All]

Chuck Nessa's response to the other Chicago thread whetted my appetite for some info about this period in Chicago's history. Chuck, you said "history was being made" (I hope you didn't mind being quoted for the thread title)- I know this was a very interesting couple of decades in Chicago's and the nation's history. I'd be very interested in hearing what you were referring to. You can't just dangle bait like that without getting a bite, you know!

Edited October 4, 2003 by Free For All

[Free For All]

C'mon, what better time to start a thread like this than on Vonski's birthday? B)

[JSngry]

History indeed! The next phase of jazz was being birthed, and Chuck was there to midwife it. People need to know!

[Larry Kart]

In case Chuck isn't in a mood right now to go over those days again, here are links to three interviews in which he does:

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Projects/Ottenhoff/.../Aacm/nessa.htm

http://www.jazzweekly.com/interviews/cnessa.htm

http://delmark.com/rhythm.nessa.htm

They were amazing times, and Chuck, I'd say, was more than a midwife. The musicians involved would have to speak for themselves, but from where I sat, his commitment, savvy, taste, and across-the-board honesty had a great deal to do with that scene's flowering the way it did. I think of it like this: Imagine those musicians and either no one (or no one much) wants to record them, or those who do lack Chuck's qualities/abilities/attitude. The scene itself, not to mention our record of it so to speak, would not have been the same, and to an extent that's difficult to calculate.

[JSngry]

I certainly meant no diminuation of Chuck's role by using the term "midwife", Larry. The role of documentarian in keeping a new scene alive and enthusiastic is crucial. I also know that he was a very early supporter in terms of attending/sponsoring concerts, etc. I can tell you that right now there's about 15-20 musicians in Dallas who would kill to have somebody do what he did. "Getting it done for yourself" is not nearly as easy or as practical as it sounds. Having a non-playing advocate who won't take no for an answer is beyond a blessing. Individual musicains may have good business sense and an ability for promotion, but as a group? HA!

As far as Chuck's involvement as springboard for musical ideas, etc. I've not heard of this, but I'd not doubt it. As you say, Chuck's no BS honesty and straight-shooting is one of his strong suits. If any stories are forthcoming, I'm ALL ears!

Edited October 4, 2003 by JSngry

[Free For All]

Thanks for those links, Lawrence- I'll check them out. I'm hoping we can keep this new thread alive and get some input from Chuck ( there are others as well, I'm sure, who can contribute valuable information and interesting stories).

I'd be interested to hear about the clubs that were active then. Plugged Nickel?

Mister Kelly's? What others were there? I sure would have liked to be at the PN when Miles was recording that great music.

There've got to be some great AACM stories, too.

[Simon Weil]

Isn't George Lewis supposed to be doing a book about this? That's the first thought. The next one is that the Art Ensemble couldn't make a living in Chicago at the end of the 60s, so they had to move to Paris where they became the Art Ensemble of Chicago and, presumably, got ripped off by Byg etc. Just another example of what sets Chuck apart from the rest.

Roscoe Mitchell said it all came together for him when he heard Albert Ayler when he was in Germany. Which is kind of interesting because the Art Ensemble were like the next development in Jazz after Ayler. I mean, in a way, they are at the root of a lot of what Jazz became after the 60s. I always like that quote where Roscoe says that, whatever, he was determined that the music would have form.

Anyway, someone should write a book about this lot.

Simon Weil

[Clunky]

I too checked out the other Chicago thread hoping to learn a bit more about AACM etc only to be reminded of the 70s soft rock band I would rather forget.

I was really put off this period and musicians for many years believing incorrectly that the music was inaccessible noise.

This was based purely on prejudice so gradual exposure to more avant jazzers of today lend me back to this AEC stuff. Helped in no small measure by the contributions Chuck here.

I bought "Snurdy" out of bizarre sense of duty only to find out that it is one of the best CDs in my entire collection. So 6 months later the AEC Nessa box has arrived courtesy of the Mosaic sale and I am slowly delving into it.

Thanks Chuck for pointing out a new direction in my listening.

[ghost of miles]

Isn't George Lewis supposed to be doing a book about this?

Yep. Although I'd love to see one from John Litweiler as well.

[Chuck Nessa]

After all the above, I don't know what to say. I think the interviews listed above cover most of the info. If anyone wants more specific questions answered, I'll try my best.

I was a lucky guy in the right place.

[Larry Kart]

An excerpt from a piece I wrote for Down Beat's 1968 year book, Music '69 (published in Jan. '69). The event described probably took place in April or maybe August 1965, the two times that year the Coltrane Quartet was in Chicago:

"The second Chicago-based player of the new music I heard was Roscoe Mitchell [bassist Russell Thorne was the first]. Coltrane was in town, and Elvin Jones was appearing at an off-night session [at a club on Wells St., probably the Brown Shoe, definitely not the Plugged Nickel--and I think it was on a Sunday afternoon, not an off-night]. As Jerry Figi once put it, Elvin was laying about "with a vengeance, one of those prehistoric movie-monsters crashing through a city…"--in the process wiping out a James Moody-like tenor player [his name was Bob Poulian]. Suddenly, in the middle of a tune, a young alto saxophonist climbed on the stand and played a solo that met Jones more than half-way. What he played, a version of the bird-like cries that Dolphy used, was inseparable from the way he played it. His raw, piercing sound was powerful enough to cut through the drums, and Elvin found himself playing with and against someone. When the saxophonist had finished, he climbed down and disappeared into the audience. Someone was able to answer my question with the name Roscoe Mitchell, and I filed it for future reference."

[Larry Kart]

Another Chicago late '60s memory, probably from 1967: Drummer Gerald Donovan (Ajaramu) and pianist/organist Amina Claudine Meyers had a gig at a bar on, I think, Stony Island Ave. Don't know if Roscoe M. and Maurice McIntyre (Kalaparush) were both sitting in or one of them was part of the band and the other was sitting in, but they were both there that night and in very relaxed form, yet this was a neighborhood bar, not an AACM concert, so as I recall there was some playful sense in the air of "How much are we (or they) going to get away with?" It was some customer's birthday, thus the inevitable request for "Happy Birthday." Roscoe, Maurice et al. not only played "Happy Birthday," but played it with as much motivically based intensity as, say, Monk played "Little Rootie Tootie," and as I recall, they played angular, beautifully logical variations on "HB" for maybe fifteen or twenty minutes -- not at all broad or parodistic, just taking what was given and running with it, though there was an underlying air of deadpan I'm not sure what to call it, maybe a distant echo of Buster Keaton. I recall that the audience was more than pleased.

[Free For All]

Great stories, Lawrence and Dave. Those are the kind of period anecdotes I'm interested in. BTW- if you haven't checked out the Nessa interviews link in Lawrence's above post, you should do so, they are very interesting, with some cool pics.

I'd love to read anything published about this topic. I hope some or all of these projects see the light of day soon. I think I've gotten interested in this period of history partially because of a documentary I recently saw about 60s political activism at Berkeley in California and wonder what similar events were happening in Chicago.

Some questions for Chuck (derived from reading interviews), should he choose to respond :

You said (in an interview)that you used to drive to Chicago from Iowa City to check out who was playing at the Plugged Nickel- were there some memorable nights there that stick in your mind? What other clubs were hot during that time?

How were Roscoe, Muhal, Jarman et al received by the jazz audience in Chicago at that time? Did they work in clubs? Was there a large audience for their music? Who was a big draw jazz-wise in Chicago around then? Were the north side/south side scenes separate- what I mean, was there much integration of the black and white musicians at that point?

This might be a bit personal and may be none of our business, but what caused you to split from JRM/Delmark?

Chuck, whether or not you decide to respond, I've enjoyed learning a bit more about you. You certainly seemed to have been at the right place at the right time and had the vision and means to recognize the importance and document it so well. That being said, I hope you DO respond, 'cause I think more queries will be forthcoming. It seems to me THIS is what a jazz board is made for!

[Chuck Nessa]

Visits to the Plugged Nickel were few and far between - It cost bucks and I had few as a student, and maybe fewer as a JRM/Delmark employee.

Two trips to the PN from Iowa City were in the company of JR Monterose to see the Coltrane quartet. JR and Elvin were tight. We would spend the night in Chicago so we could take in 2 nights of the "classic quartet". One time the band assembled on stage sans Elvin. Trane looked around the club for him, dismissed Garrison and Tyner, sat down at the piano and lit his pipe. He played chords for about ten minutes before Elvin stumbled in the front door. It was obvious Elvin was feeling no pain. Trane motioned to the drums and Elvin sheepishly got into position. Trane kicked off (maybe) Impressions at a furious tempo and worked Elvin for (possibly) a half hour. I've never seen anyone sweat as much as Elvin that night, but by the end of the performance he was flying. The last time I saw Coltrane was also at the Nickel with Alice, Pharoah, Garrison and Ali.

Other groups I heard there included Horace Silver, Jimmy Smith, Monk, Wes Montgomery and lastly Miles. In the late summer of '68, just before moving to Bloomington, IN, I went to the Nickel for the last time to see Miles. The group included Wayne, Dave Holland, Tony and Chick (making his first gig on the road with the band). Chick looked scared to death - afraid to play chords behind Miles.

At intermission Joe Segal motioned to join him at the bar. When I got there he introduced me to Miles as a record producer. Miles grinned ear to ear, extended his hand, grabbed by forearm with his left hand, and whispered "Step outside M-F, and I'll break your arm". Then he chuckled and slapped me on the back. Miles was in a playful mood because he was marrying "Mademoiselle Mabry" later that night.

Roscoe, Muhal, Braxton, Jarman had reasonable local followings, but not enough to support them. The description of the local scene is too complex to get into now, but I may come back to it later. Remind me later.

I left JRM/Delmark because of a personality conflict with Bob. He had a habit of exploding and throwing tantrums at the least provocation. Once because he didn't like the way I opened mail (neatly sliced edges led him to believe the envelope was unopened - he wanted them ripped open) and another time because I threw away an old, old piece of carbon paper. The following story is the event sparking my departure. I had convinced the Chicago Sun-Times a piece on the AACM would be a good idea. They assigned a young female reporter to accompany me to a Sunday night concert. We agreed to meet at the JRM. When she arrived I introduced her to Bob and he chose that moment to explode and rip my guts out because a light bulb was burned out. I decided at the concert I could not return to work.

All this paints an ugly portrait of a guy I have tons of respect/love for. I regret that, but it was the way it was.

[The Mule]

Sounds like Bob...

I witnessed a couple of his fits when I was a customer.

Hey, Chuck, were you ever involved in any of those 16mm screenings of old soundies and musicals Bob used to have at the old JRM?

[Free For All]

Thanks for your responses, Chuck. I find these stories fascinating-they create a vivid image of the city and general scene at that time. Sound like the PN was the place to be.

Was there anything music-wise going on in Iowa City at that time, either in the town or at the University? There seems to be a bit of a scene there these days, and their annual jazz festival brings in some interesting groups/players.

I remember hearing about Herbie Hancock attending Grinnell College down the road for a while- was that in the early sixties?

Do you and Bob keep in touch these days? I've also experienced some of his tirades at the store and in the Delmark studio. Overall a great guy, though.

[Chuck Nessa]

Do you and Bob keep in touch these days? I've also experienced some of his tirades at the store and in the Delmark studio. Overall a great guy, though.

Two weeks ago tonight Bob and I were in a local bar throwing back beers for about 3 hours. Does that answer your last question?

[Chuck Nessa]

Hey, Chuck, were you ever involved in any of those 16mm screenings of old soundies and musicals Bob used to have at the old JRM?

I attended a few there, but many more at the Lincoln Ave offices in the '70s and early '80s.

[Larry Kart]

Free For all asks, "How were Roscoe, Muhal, Jarman et al received by the jazz audience in Chicago at that time? Did they work in clubs? Was there a large audience for their music? Who was a big draw jazz-wise in Chicago around then? Were the north side/south side scenes separate- what I mean, was there much integration of the black and white musicians at that point?" And Chuck rightly warns that description of the local scene is complex. But I'll give it a try.

The not large but for the most part dedicated basic audience for Roscoe, Muhal, Jarman et al. was drawn from maybe four somewhat overlapping groups: First, the members of the AACM themselves had some connection to an African-American cultural/political ... I don't think "movement" is quite the right word, but something between a movement and a yeasty, coalescing community; and I recall that, depending on the location of a particular event or concert, a fair percentage of the audience would consist of people who were connected with that community, including of course musicians who weren't playing that afternoon or evening but wanted to hear what fellow players were doing. Second, as in any good-sized urban center at the time, there was a body of hard-core jazz fans who'd been paying attention to what was up on the so-called cutting edge nationally as a matter of course , and some of those listeners had become aware of what was up in their own town and realized that these were world-class innovative players, even if they weren't yet well-known. Third, overlapping with the second group, and again as in any good-sized urban center at the time, there was a fair amount of free-floating counter culture sentiment, looking for sorts of cultural activity that had, or could be thought to have, a rebellious, "let's remake the world" tone. And Lord knows, a fair amount of this music gave you the feeling that the world was being remade. Fourth, and of course overlapping with the third group (as well as the second), a good number of AACM members lived in or near Chicago's Hyde Park neighborhood, which is where the University of Chicago is located, so there were a fair number of U. of C. students who belonged to groups two and three and began to follow these musicians, who were as it happens often synergistically jamming or holding concerts in U of C. student lounges or other venues.

I don't think there was much if any club work for AACM-related players playing their music on their own terms -- other than the kind of Ajaramu/Claudine Myers gig I mentioned in a previous post, where players who had straightahead-ish inclinations were hired to play more or less that way and then could test the boundaries. Also, there was sideman work to be had in blues and r&b bands.

I don't think there was much integration of the black and white musicians at that point, for a couple of reasons. First, there was both an actual and perceived by those white musicians who might be interested cultural/racial clannishness to the AACM community. Not that I recall any overt hostility, actually quite the opposite in many instances, just a sense that this is more or less our thing. Second, I don't think there were all that many (or at least not as many) white musicians in town at the time who were that interested in/knowlegable about the kind of the music that the AACM players were making, and some of those who were (e.g. bassist Russell Thorne, drummer Hal Russell) were just the kind of tightly wound customers who might have trouble getting along with most people they didn't already know, as well as a good many people they did. A shame, because I wouldn't have been surprised if Thorne and, say, the Jarman of that time had turned out to have a lot of common ground musically. Of course, Muhal, the elder statesmen, had had a long professional career in groups of many types, including the MJT Plus Three, which had included non-African-American trumpeters Paul Serrano and Willie Thomas.

[Free For All]

Two weeks ago tonight Bob and I were in a local bar throwing back beers for about 3 hours. Does that answer your last question?

It certainly does. Let me guess.........Bass on tap? You have a favorite haunt in Chicago?

Lawrence, thank you for that info. I'm really diggin' this thread!

Edited October 6, 2003 by Free For All

[JSngry]

I'd like to know how active Von was w/the early AACM cats. I remember Larry, I think, telling a story about Jarman sitting in w/Von and Von playing in Jarman's style, and I definitely hear a Vonish thing (or is it just a Chicago thing) happening in the AACM tenor players to this day, but was Von actively supportive of these guys, openmindedly interested, or just bemusedly tolearant? Seems to me like he could appreciate a lot of what they were into, based on hiis own concept.

Also, did anybody hear Amina playing with Jug? How active in the AACM was she?

And finally, part three (or 2B), on a somewhat unrelated note to what's been under discussion so far, what was the scene like with Jug's local gigs? Over the years, I've talked to three different African-American males of roughly the age who frequented Jug's gigs. None of them knew the others, but all three began to shed tears when reminiscing about those gigs. There seemed to be a lot of love in the general community for the cat. Just wondering if anybody here got a taste of that scene. I went to college w/a cuppla white guys from Chicago, and when I asked them if they ever checked out Gene Ammons, they just said simething about being scared of the neighborhood. I'm wondering if these guys were just chicken, both socially and musically. Obviously, and not surprisingly, different people have different stories!

[Chuck Nessa]

By the time I got to Chicago (1966), Von was living in Las Vegas. He didn’t return until the early ‘70s. I have no info about early direct contact. Von was always supportive of the AACM guys. Nothing but praise from Vonsky.

I never heard Amina with Jug and she was as active with the AACM as any of the “second tier” (those ‘below’ Muhal, Roscoe and Joseph).

Jug was in prison from late ’62 until late ’69. His return to Chicago was HUGE. I can’t imagine it would have been bigger if it had been Bird. Where/when ever Jug played the place was always packed. Understand the difference between North Side and South Side gigs. The gigs up North were a 50/50 mix of black and white, while the South Side scene was (almost) exclusively black. I was politely turned away from an Ammons appearance at the Apartment Lounge one night.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

A friend of mine played with Ammons at the C&C - trying to pin down the dates (the C&C gig lasted from 1962 to around 1964 and included Eddie Williams, Roland Faulkner, Dorell Anderson, and others, Sleepy Anderson, later Charles Stepney). Sounds far-fetched, but he remembers Gene being let out of jail, escorted to the gig, and brought back immediately afterwards. I'll try to get some more specifics.

BTW, I see that discographies show a 1968 Los Angeles Richard Boone record date with Ammons (on the Nocturne label) - that's got to be wrong.

Mike

[JSngry]

Doesn't sound THAT far-fetched, Mike. Well, ok, maybe it does, but you never know...

What was Von doing in Vegas? Gigging? Wonder if he crossed paths w/James Moody out there (for those who don't know, Moody spent the early 70s doing pit band work in Vegas, having become disillusioned with having any more of a career in jazz). How long was Von out there? Was Chico with him? How many short annoying questions can I ask at once?

[JSngry]

Oh, one more - who, if anybody, was considered the "direct heir" to Ike Day? Wilbur Campbell?