MLB 2008

[papsrus]

Dan -- or anyone:

WFT is the deal with the wavier wire? I know basically that every team ahead of you in the standings has a shot to block you from picking up a player, and I know that virtually every team throws a list of players out there for a variety of reasons. But how do the BoSox, for instance, block the Rays from picking up ANY AND ALL players floating around out there that they might be interested in? Wouldn't the Sox end up with a half dozen players they don't really want?

... not quite getting it ...

[Dan Gould]

Dan -- or anyone:

WFT is the deal with the wavier wire? I know basically that every team ahead of you in the standings has a shot to block you from picking up a player, and I know that virtually every team throws a list of players out there for a variety of reasons. But how do the BoSox, for instance, block the Rays from picking up ANY AND ALL players floating around out there that they might be interested in? Wouldn't the Sox end up with a half dozen players they don't really want?

... not quite getting it ...

I've recently seen a link to a straightforward description of the process, but basically, teams put players on revocable waivers. So the player is offered to each team in the same league, from worst to best record, then the process is repeated in the other league (pretty sure they do it by leagues, not overall record). So with one of the best records, the Rays are in a tougher spot than say the Yanks or Red Sox. But once someone is claimed, the two teams have 48 hours to negotiate a deal. If they don't, the player stays with his original team and he can't be put through waivers again for the rest of the season. So the waivers aren't irrevocable because the team that has his rights can pull him back - if they really wanted to trade him to a particular team and someone makes a blocking maneuver, they can simply pull him back and not even bother with the 48 hour negotiating window.

The only way the Sox would end up with a bunch of players they don't really want is if their teams chose to simply let them have the players they put a claim on. That's a straight salary dump and for a long time rarely happened. Then the Reds took their "nasty boy" relievers (Charlton?), put them on waivers, and when a claim was made, didn't pull them back, leaving the team that didn't really want him stuck with his remaining salary. Supposedly when Canseco spent the last couple of months of the 2000 season with the Yankees, that was a deal where the Yanks put in a claim to block Canseco and ended up stuck with him.

So that's the risk that you run, but its still pretty rare. Most teams put guys on waivers but will pull them back if someone claims them.

[papsrus]

Dan -- or anyone:

WFT is the deal with the wavier wire? I know basically that every team ahead of you in the standings has a shot to block you from picking up a player, and I know that virtually every team throws a list of players out there for a variety of reasons. But how do the BoSox, for instance, block the Rays from picking up ANY AND ALL players floating around out there that they might be interested in? Wouldn't the Sox end up with a half dozen players they don't really want?

... not quite getting it ...

I've recently seen a link to a straightforward description of the process, but basically, teams put players on revocable waivers. So the player is offered to each team in the same league, from worst to best record, then the process is repeated in the other league (pretty sure they do it by leagues, not overall record). So with one of the best records, the Rays are in a tougher spot than say the Yanks or Red Sox. But once someone is claimed, the two teams have 48 hours to negotiate a deal. If they don't, the player stays with his original team and he can't be put through waivers again for the rest of the season. So the waivers aren't irrevocable because the team that has his rights can pull him back - if they really wanted to trade him to a particular team and someone makes a blocking maneuver, they can simply pull him back and not even bother with the 48 hour negotiating window.

The only way the Sox would end up with a bunch of players they don't really want is if their teams chose to simply let them have the players they put a claim on. That's a straight salary dump and for a long time rarely happened. Then the Reds took their "nasty boy" relievers (Charlton?), put them on waivers, and when a claim was made, didn't pull them back, leaving the team that didn't really want him stuck with his remaining salary. Supposedly when Canseco spent the last couple of months of the 2000 season with the Yankees, that was a deal where the Yanks put in a claim to block Canseco and ended up stuck with him.

So that's the risk that you run, but its still pretty rare. Most teams put guys on waivers but will pull them back if someone claims them.

Thanks Dan. It would be nice if this "blocking" tactic was somehow eliminated -- or at least mitigated. For instance, you could allow a team to block once, then allow the other team to put their player back on waivers a second time for a limited time. Something like that. But then again, maybe the league wants this. ... Or maybe the union would be opposed.

Anyways, looks like the Rays won't be able to pick up anyone. Their own fault for not making a move before the deadline, I suppose.

[Dan Gould]

Actually I think the system is perfect as it is and would even say that if our positions were switched. It would be kind of silly if you could block a move and then the guy could go back on waivers - there'd be no point to the waiver process then. But by doing it in order of record, and for your league before the other, it gives teams that are chasing the ability to block moves that may help the team you are chasing. So better teams can't automatically get better if they can work a deal, lower teams can make blocking maneuvers.

We'll see if teams like the Yankees letting Byrd slip through comes back to haunt them.

[Tom in RI]

I was a little surprised that the Rays didn't make a deal before the trading deadline. From what I read and hear they have one of the best collections of prospects in baseball. There's no way they could have anticipated the injuries they have. OTOH, you have to plan for surprises and get a little extra if you think you are close.

I'm glad to see the Bosox on a little run post-Manny. Still, I have to believe that the Twins will be breathing down their necks for the wild card if the Sox can't overtake Tampa.

[Tom in RI]

I'd be real surprised if the Sox made a serious pitch for Sabathia. They have 3 guys at the front end now who are all under their control for at least 2-3 years. If they look for starting pitching outside of their system it would be for an end of rotation guy.

[Dan Gould]

I'd be real surprised if the Sox made a serious pitch for Sabathia. They have 3 guys at the front end now who are all under their control for at least 2-3 years. If they look for starting pitching outside of their system it would be for an end of rotation guy.

Actually, don't they have Beckett, Dice-K, Lester, Buchholz and Masterson all under their control for at least two years? And of course Wakefield has a lifetime contract; if he doesn't have any lingering shoulder issues, I'd expect them to pick up the next option year. That would put one of Buccholz and Masterson as the sixth starter, and Bowden backing him up.

Really there is no reason to go after a back of the rotation guy unless they really want added depth. The bigger issue going forward is replacing Manny's production, and I think they will make a very hard play for Teixeira, with Bay or, less likely, Youk, on the trading bloc if they're successful.

[BERIGAN]

Lets see how some hitters are doing since being traded....

since the July 29 trade.

Tex: .340 in 13 games (17-for-50) for the Angels with two doubles, four homers and 13 RBIs.

Kotchman: .173 in 14 games (9-for-52) for the Braves with two doubles, one triple and 5 RBIs. Man, those NL pitchers must be real tough!

Xaiver Nady. 6 HR's 17 RBI's, .323 BA in 16 games.

Jason Bay, 1 HR 11 RBI's .340 BA in 12 games. AL Pitchers are pussies!

Is there anyone important I forgot?? Oh yeah....

Manny 5 HR's 16 RBI's and .467 BA in 12 games.

Amazing what the man can do, when he, you know....tries.

[tkeith]

Dan -- or anyone:

WFT is the deal with the wavier wire? I know basically that every team ahead of you in the standings has a shot to block you from picking up a player, and I know that virtually every team throws a list of players out there for a variety of reasons. But how do the BoSox, for instance, block the Rays from picking up ANY AND ALL players floating around out there that they might be interested in? Wouldn't the Sox end up with a half dozen players they don't really want?

... not quite getting it ...

If you're an ESPN insider, Steve Phillips does a great job explaining it here. I'm not an insider, or I'd just post it. He explained it on BBTN, too.

We'll see if teams like the Yankees letting Byrd slip through comes back to haunt them.

Skanks are letting it happen how it happens this year. They've clearly decided not to mortgage the future, which is unfortunate, because they have a lot of young talent waiting in the wings. Hopefully, it backfires.

[tkeith]

Actually, don't they have Beckett, Dice-K, Lester, Buchholz and Masterson all under their control for at least two years? And of course Wakefield has a lifetime contract; if he doesn't have any lingering shoulder issues, I'd expect them to pick up the next option year. That would put one of Buccholz and Masterson as the sixth starter, and Bowden backing him up.

Yes, with Dice being one of them, they seem poised to be the first team to try the 6-man rotation.

[tkeith]

Is there anyone important I forgot?? Oh yeah....

Manny 5 HR's 16 RBI's and .467 BA in 12 games.

Amazing what the man can do, when he, you know....tries.

F*ck Manny with a donkey dick. Good riddance to him and his inability to hold a turd for an inning.

[BERIGAN]

Is there anyone important I forgot?? Oh yeah....

Manny 5 HR's 16 RBI's and .467 BA in 12 games.

Amazing what the man can do, when he, you know....tries.

F*ck Manny with a donkey dick. Good riddance to him and his inability to hold a turd for an inning.

I wish you Red Sox fans could just let go, and tell us how your really feel!

[papsrus]

Dan -- or anyone:

WFT is the deal with the wavier wire? I know basically that every team ahead of you in the standings has a shot to block you from picking up a player, and I know that virtually every team throws a list of players out there for a variety of reasons. But how do the BoSox, for instance, block the Rays from picking up ANY AND ALL players floating around out there that they might be interested in? Wouldn't the Sox end up with a half dozen players they don't really want?

... not quite getting it ...

If you're an ESPN insider, Steve Phillips does a great job explaining it here. I'm not an insider, or I'd just post it. He explained it on BBTN, too.

Thanks. I'm not an insider, but Dan's explanation and the Wiki entry pretty much cleared things up. I guess the source of my puzzlement haf more to do with the "why" than the details of the "how."

[tkeith]

Thanks. I'm not an insider, but Dan's explanation and the Wiki entry pretty much cleared things up. I guess the source of my puzzlement haf more to do with the "why" than the details of the "how."

I have to agree with Dan on this one; the answer to "why" is because it works. Otherwise, let's assume I'm Cleveland with a grudge, and Paul Byrd *doesn't* go to Boston. I pull him back and re-waive him so the Rays can pick him up. Great for the Rays, but sets a bad precedent for teams to bear out grudges.

The primary difference between Phillips explanation and Dan/wiki is the timing. It's actually a touch more contrived. For instance, teams have 47.5 hours to work a deal, not 48, and 'why?' I have *no* idea. But Phillips' explanation really let you see how intricate and hard to manage the whole thing was, but it was also very understandable. It did interest me that you have to clear waivers in your own league first -- yet another argument for doing away with interleague play.

[papsrus]

... and now Percival is out with a sprained knee (from running to first base). I was always a little nervous with him in there anyways, and was hoping that Balfour might be able to close, but then he came in and blew the save yesterday! Yikes. But injuries are starting to take a real toll. Crawford unlikely to return in anything more than pinch-running duty. Who knows if Longoria can recover from a broken hand and get his swing back in time.

Missed the Peavy-Sheets match-up in San Diego last night. Bummer.

[Soulstation1]

the tribe give up 6 runs in the 8th and lose

:rsmile:

[Big Al]

In a perfect world, Youk would come to the Rangers after declaring free agency at the end of the year....

A perfect world for a Rangers fan, mind you.

[Dan Gould]

... and now Percival is out with a sprained knee (from running to first base). I was always a little nervous with him in there anyways, and was hoping that Balfour might be able to close, but then he came in and blew the save yesterday! Yikes. But injuries are starting to take a real toll. Crawford unlikely to return in anything more than pinch-running duty. Who knows if Longoria can recover from a broken hand and get his swing back in time.

Missed the Peavy-Sheets match-up in San Diego last night. Bummer.

The Rays have come too far to miss the playoffs! - and to do that and let the Yanks get in would require that they play one game under .500 while the Yanks play .700+ the rest of the way. Of course I wouldn't mind if the Rays struggle and the Sox can catch them, then they'd at least have home field for the first round while the Rays can deal with the Halos.

At least the Rays should do OK this weekend against the Rangers, if they pitch a little and hit a little (easier to do the latter) (sorry Al). But then they get the Angels, so hopefully we'll close the gap by this time next week.

[papsrus]

... Otherwise, let's assume I'm Cleveland with a grudge, and Paul Byrd *doesn't* go to Boston. I pull him back and re-waive him so the Rays can pick him up. Great for the Rays, but sets a bad precedent for teams to bear out grudges.

OK. But if you set it up so that Cleveland couldn't pull him back once they put him on the waiver wire, and once Boston claimed Byrd they would have to either sign him to a new deal, or (failing that) pick up his remaining contract, then teams would (A) only put players on the waiver wire that they really wanted to waive, and (B) acquiring teams would only move to pick up players they really wanted acquire or were willing to sign, and not simply grab players they don't really want in order to block rivals from acquiring them.

The way things are now, the waiver wire system, as I understand it (or maybe, misunderstand it) is in some respects set up to encourage the non-movement of players, except for the purpose of dumping a salary. I would think the union might be opposed to that, but I guess it benefits the players somehow.

[Soulstation1]

Damn

Jeter might not play in the post-season for the first time

[papsrus]

... and now Percival is out with a sprained knee (from running to first base). I was always a little nervous with him in there anyways, and was hoping that Balfour might be able to close, but then he came in and blew the save yesterday! Yikes. But injuries are starting to take a real toll. Crawford unlikely to return in anything more than pinch-running duty. Who knows if Longoria can recover from a broken hand and get his swing back in time.

Missed the Peavy-Sheets match-up in San Diego last night. Bummer.

The Rays have come too far to miss the playoffs! - and to do that and let the Yanks get in would require that they play one game under .500 while the Yanks play .700+ the rest of the way. Of course I wouldn't mind if the Rays struggle and the Sox can catch them, then they'd at least have home field for the first round while the Rays can deal with the Halos.

At least the Rays should do OK this weekend against the Rangers, if they pitch a little and hit a little (easier to do the latter) (sorry Al). But then they get the Angels, so hopefully we'll close the gap by this time next week.

And then there's Sept. 8-10 @ Boston, Sept. 12-14 @ NY and Sept. 15-17 at home vs the BoSox. It's going to be a wild finish!

[Dan Gould]

Waivers are definitely set up to encourage the non-movement of players. The idea is to keep it from being easy for a contender to improve their team, and I think that's a good thing. Remember too that players who are not on the roster as of August 31 (or September 1, can't remember which) are ineligible for post-season play. Something else that keeps a good team from getting better, or leaves them more at the mercy of their competition.

But the idea of blocking players goes back a ways, and its what makes the non-waiver deadline of the last day of July at 4 PM ET an important part of the season.

[papsrus]

Waivers are definitely set up to encourage the non-movement of players. The idea is to keep it from being easy for a contender to improve their team, and I think that's a good thing. Remember too that players who are not on the roster as of August 31 (or September 1, can't remember which) are ineligible for post-season play. Something else that keeps a good team from getting better, or leaves them more at the mercy of their competition.

But the idea of blocking players goes back a ways, and its what makes the non-waiver deadline of the last day of July at 4 PM ET an important part of the season.

Yeah, it makes sense from that perspective. I guess I'm just bemoaning how the Rays have gotten kicked in the nads here with some key injuries. But I guess everyone goes through that at some point. Never a good time to lose a Longoria ... or your closer (even though he's a panic attack every time he throws the ball).

[tkeith]

... Otherwise, let's assume I'm Cleveland with a grudge, and Paul Byrd *doesn't* go to Boston. I pull him back and re-waive him so the Rays can pick him up. Great for the Rays, but sets a bad precedent for teams to bear out grudges.

OK. But if you set it up so that Cleveland couldn't pull him back once they put him on the waiver wire, and once Boston claimed Byrd they would have to either sign him to a new deal, or (failing that) pick up his remaining contract, then teams would (A) only put players on the waiver wire that they really wanted to waive, and (B) acquiring teams would only move to pick up players they really wanted acquire or were willing to sign, and not simply grab players they don't really want in order to block rivals from acquiring them.

The way things are now, the waiver wire system, as I understand it (or maybe, misunderstand it) is in some respects set up to encourage the non-movement of players, except for the purpose of dumping a salary. I would think the union might be opposed to that, but I guess it benefits the players somehow.

The system you are describing is the one that exists. Remember, teams have the option of placing a player on revocable waivers or irrevocable waivers. The situation you describe is what happens with a guy like Canseco going to the Yankees. In the current system there is the risk for the claiming team that they may get stuck with someone if they claim him. A deal sending Canseco to the Sox had been struck, all that was left was for him to clear waivers. The Skanks claimed him to block the deal, and... I forget who had Jose at the time, but they were pissed because they stood to pick up a player they wanted if the deal went through with Boston. Now that that was messed up, they just dumped him on the Skanks.

I think the confusion is the notion that trade talks don't begin until a player clears waivers; that's not always the case. In *most* cases, though, teams put ALL their players on waivers (you're allowed, I believe, 7 a day) just to see who might be interested. Most players clear waivers and we never hear about it. By having that in place, though, it also forces teams to be on the lookout, lest a Paul Byrd slip by without being taken.

[tkeith]

But the idea of blocking players goes back a ways, and its what makes the non-waiver deadline of the last day of July at 4 PM ET an important part of the season.

And don't forget, the trading deadline used to be BEFORE the all-star break! (Mid-June, if I recall correctly)