BIG John Patton Is Da Shit

[Soulstation1]

fav green, patton and dixon session?

ss1

[Guest akanalog]

just want to say i have always been a little critical of patton (perhaps because zorn championed him), but based on the greater continuum of organ-based music produced in the 60s to early 70s patton certainly deserves respect and his body of work hold more depth in my opinion than any other organist i have listened to (besides larry young maybe). i still think he has a few annoying licks he overuses, but overall i am liking him more and more and can go back and enjoy repeated listenings of his albums a lot more than i can jimmy smith, brother jack (excepting moon rappin), leon spencer type stuff....

[Man with the Golden Arm]

just want to say i have always been a little critical of patton (perhaps because zorn championed him)...

WHY?

[Guest akanalog]

because to me a zorn seal of approval has been a sign to be leery of something...

based on my appreciation of his work, zorn and i have differing tastes...

[Soulstation1]

for those that don't have the patton set

check out the sound clip of minor swing at mosaic

it's one of my fav songs off the set

Minor Swing

ss1

[Soulstation1]

soul stream

did you ever explain how you hooked up with big john?

ss1

[jazzypaul]

because to me a zorn seal of approval has been a sign to be leery of something...

based on my appreciation of his work, zorn and i have differing tastes...

yeah, I can't stand Ornette Coleman, Sonny Clark, John Patton, Bill Frisell or Wayne Horovitz either...

just givin' ya some grief...

[Guest akanalog]

well i guess i need to take it back since i have become a satanist and zorn touted alistair crowley on "IAO". so now i agree with his taste.

just jokin!!! about me being a satanist i mean. ho ho ho.

but for real, i am so sick of organ jazz but i still enjoy patton's later blue notes. they have a depth and dimension not often found in the genre. i still think he repeats licks a bit here and there, but it's ok with me.

[Soul Stream]

soul stream

did you ever explain how you hooked up with big john?

ss1

It still makes me wonder how I got to be so close to john. Too bad it was just a few years before his death, but I was glad to have the opportunity while it lasted.

I moved to Boston and picked up an the Village Voice and saw where they were listing a Blue Note reuinion trio of Big John, Ben Dixon and George Braith. Man, I couldn't believe it! Those guys were my biggest heros, and as far as jazz organ was concerned, Big John was IT for me. So I drove and down and couldn't believe the gig has almost no turnout. (my first eye-opening experience). Anyway, I had brought some albums for those guys to sign and got to talking to them. John ended up inviting me over to his house so he could show me some stuff on organ, and the rest is history. Never asked for a penny, we just became friends and I used to drive out all the time and spend the weekend with him and his wife. Talked on the phone almost daily and he'd show me stuff over the phone too. Beautiful times. Anything I know, I owe ALL to john. Wonderful. I never felt worthy of the opportunity.

[Jim Alfredson]

That's a great story, Mike. I wish I had the chance to learn from one of the true masters, although my mentor, Doug Decker, is a phenomenal organist who can hang with the best.

I got some pedals lessons from Dr. Lonnie Smith after one of his gigs, once. And I played in front of Joey DeFrancesco, who told me, "You're gonna give me a run for my money!" I don't know how true that is, but it was nice of him to say that.

I never got to see Big John live. I would've loved to have met him and heard him play. I'm thankful I got to see McDuff before he passed. And I've seen McGriff and Jimmy Smith several times. Never got to see Shirley or Groove or (of course) Don Patterson. Or even Don Pullen. So many masters gone.

Gotta keep the torch lit...

[DrJ]

Thanks for sharing that Patton story, Soul Stream.

Never got to see Big John play live, certainly never had the chance to meet him, I'm green with envy. In addition to being a great musician, everything I've ever read or heard about him just screams "heck of a nice guy," with your story being no exception. I still say some of the best, most touching liner notes for any recording I have are those penned by John Zorn for Patton's BOOGALOO (BN Rare Groove), which again capture the impression of a wonderful, down to earth human being.

[Soul Stream]

Yes, I think "Down To Earth" is an apt description of John.

Another thing, somebody in some liner notes wrote Patton was like a "Black Soulwick." I think that's the most dead-on thing anybody could have every said to describe him. John was in person EXACTLY like his music. His speech pattern sounded like his phrasing on the hammond. His hip slang he used were like the slick little turnbacks he played.

He was the embodiment of jazz organ. Man, when he sat at the organ...he oooozzzed authenticity, hipness and artistry. I realized immediately, you can cop his licks, but that's about it....he's playing who he is. A real master with his own identity on the organ. That's almost impossible to do.

Edited February 2, 2005 by Soul Stream

[Jazz Kat]

Here's what Jimmy Smith thought John Patton.

"John Patton is average, nothing that great," Jimmy Smith. He called Larry Young and Shirley Scott his understudies.

[Jim Alfredson]

Here's what Jimmy Smith thought John Patton.

"John Patton is average, nothing that great," Jimmy Smith. He called Larry Young and Shirley Scott his understudies.

Where did you find that quote? Not that it matters much... Jimmy Smith has an ego bigger than his discography! He's a funny dude.

[Soul Stream]

Here's what Jimmy Smith thought John Patton.

"John Patton is average, nothing that great," Jimmy Smith. He called Larry Young and Shirley Scott his understudies.

I thought the quote was "Average, not dynamite." I saw it in a jazz book with an organ section believe it or not. Pretty cool book, I also remember Smith saying that Don Patterson was the only one on his level...somthing like that.

Whatever the case. One time Patton and I were listening to "The Sermon" and Patton said "Man, I wish I had talent like that!" That blew me away. Look. Jimmy always had the mostest and Patton or McDuff, ect. would be the first to tell you. However, for the rest of us mortals, Patton RULES!!!!!

[j lee]

From an interview with Jean-Louis Ginibre, in the liners to the Salle Pleyel 28-v-1965 concert CD on Malaco Classics:

"Jack McDuff, Jimmy McGriff, Richard 'Groove' Holmes, Shirley Scott are my pupils. And so is Don Patterson, although we're closer. When we meet up on the road, they come to the club where I'm playing and after closing time, they gather around me and I show them different ways to improvise. I give them excerpts to study, and then I let them practice as much as they want. But most of the time they can't do what I show them."

[connoisseur series500]

Here's what Jimmy Smith thought John Patton.

"John Patton is average, nothing that great," Jimmy Smith. He called Larry Young and Shirley Scott his understudies.

I remember reading that in a jazz picture book as well. Doesn't matter to me what Jimmy Smith said. Patton was incomparable; and he will always remain as one of the best to me.

[Jazz Kat]

Soulstream, you probaly got the same book as me. With Smith saying that when he taught Shirley, he had to tell her to, "close the gates."

Smith, I guess, thought he was the best damn organ player in the world. I don't know if that is true, but there is no denying his talent. I forget the organist he says, is a "Jimmy Smith copy-cat."

[Jim Alfredson]

Soulstream, you probaly got the same book as me. With Smith saying that when he taught Shirley, he had to tell her to, "close the gates."

Smith, I guess, thought he was the best damn organ player in the world. I don't know if that is true, but there is no denying his talent. I forget the organist he says, is a "Jimmy Smith copy-cat."

Joey DeFrancesco?

I love Joey, though. He's a bad dude.

[Soul Stream]

Soulstream, you probaly got the same book as me. With Smith saying that when he taught Shirley, he had to tell her to, "close the gates." 

Smith, I guess, thought he was the best damn organ player in the world. I don't know if that is true, but there is no denying his talent. I forget the organist he says, is a "Jimmy Smith copy-cat."

Joey DeFrancesco?

I love Joey, though. He's a bad dude.

Like Frank Morgan told a detractor..."Hey, you think it's EASY playing like Charlie Parker!"

Jimmy can act like he's the best, because he is and always has been the greatest organist in history. Although like everything else in life, after listening to the greatest (Jimmy Smith), it's still nice to hear just great (Patton, matter of fact, sounds better many times).

[sidewinder]

Too bad that Big John was pretty well confined to that club in Newark for his last few decades, though it's heartening to hear that he was appreciated by his close family circle (good words on this in the Zorn notes to 'Boogaloo' as mentioned in a previous post). I seem to recall hearing that he did at least one gig in London in the early 90s but (sad to say) I wasn't around here at the time. Now, if only ...

I've never heard Big Johns playing on that Zorn 'The Big Gundown' album though. Anyone have any thoughts on his playing on this one? (I think he's given a walk-on role on 'Three Lane Highway').

[Soul Stream]

Too bad that Big John was pretty well confined to that club in Newark for his last few decades, though it's heartening to hear that he was appreciated by his close family circle (good words on this in the Zorn notes to 'Boogaloo' as mentioned in a previous post). I seem to recall hearing that he did at least one gig in London in the early 90s but (sad to say) I wasn't around here at the time. Now, if only ...

I've never heard Big Johns playing on that Zorn 'The Big Gundown' album though. Anyone have any thoughts on his playing on this one? (I think he's given a walk-on role on 'Three Lane Highway').

Sparky J's in Newark was a gig he played for sometime in the 80's. By the 90's with the organ revival, his career was jump started again and he enjoyed several trips to europe and some higher profile stuff here in the states. He regularly played The Jazz Bakery and was a fixture at Smoke in NYC, among other places. Gigs weren't as plentiful as they should have been, but he did keep busy, although I think the last couple years it had slowed down a bit from what it had been in the mid-90's at the height of the Acid Jazz movement.

[sidewinder]

Yes, I think his London gigs must have been at the Jazz Cafe in Camden Town - very much a home here of the 'Acid Jazz' movement.

[Kari S]

I have a question about Big John's Memphis To New York Spirit from 1969-1970. Allmusic says that it should have 8 tracks, including one of my favorite tunes ever, McCoy's "Man From Tanganyika". Now, I have the BN (reissue) LP from 1996 right in front of me, but it only has 5 tracks??! :angry: WTF? Was there also a cd reissue and were they included on that instead, or something?

[Soul Stream]

I have a question about Big John's Memphis To New York Spirit from 1969-1970. Allmusic says that it should have 8 tracks, including one of my favorite tunes ever, McCoy's "Man From Tanganyika". Now, I have the BN (reissue) LP from 1996 right in front of me, but it only has 5 tracks??! :angry: WTF? Was there also a cd reissue and were they included on that instead, or something?

Yes, the BN LP does not have those tracks. You've GOT to get the CD which is awesome (and I rarely use that word, but it fits here).