Fake Books

[uks]

Here's one for discussion. I use fake books for playing Jazz Standards and there's always problems with the notation in such books apart from the Sher music ones. Swing notation is a bit hit and miss. The approved way is to use 8th notes. However transcribers will often use a dotted 8th and a sixteenth for such swing.

Bearing this in mind, there are many cases where the transcriber will use a dotted 8th note and a sixteenth pair and then use two straight 8th notes as well. What do they mean by this?

Looking at books by Louis Bellson for instance, he says to play them both as swing but this is only when playing from legit music. The transriber must have had a reaon for using the two types of notation above even if their transcription is wrong.

What's the general opinion here?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

It depends on the source - in many cases the dotted eighth-sixteenth signifies a "ricky-tick" kind of old fashioned style - hear this in the jazz march shout chorus of "Whisper Not" or in "Dat Dere."

You will also sometimes see two normal eighth notes both marked as tenuto to signify even eighths in the midst of a swing eighths piece.

Without seeing it and the entire context, I can't say for certain regarding the Bellson example you cite.

In fake books - forget it. The transcribers often have no knowledge of reality.

Mike

[uks]

The Louis Bellson quote came from his Modern Reading Text in 4/4. This is a set of exercises for reading common patterns. He recommends playing them legit and swing. In his example, an eigth and two sixteeth group still retains the swing feel. He does mention four sixteenths which most people play straight (although again there's arguments about this).

I'd love to know what the transcriber was thinking though in my original example; even though it may be wrong in terms of accuracy they obviously had somthing in mind.

[Free For All]

In his example, an eigth and two sixteeth group still retains the swing feel. He does mention four sixteenths which most people play straight (although again there's arguments about this).

Hi, uks, and welcome to the board.

Regarding your last point, I would be one to say that the group of four sixteenths would be played straight (in almost any situation). As the tempo increases, there comes a point when it becomes detrimental to the swing feel to try to swing individual notes. If you listen to any bop-based players (like Bird, Clifford, Stitt, Rollins,etc.) you'll notice that on bright tempos the eighths are pretty much straight- the swing effect comes from accenting/ghosting specific notes( like high/low notes, isolated notes, etc.). Trying to swing each note in a line would result in a extremely "bouncy" feel that is inappropriate to modern (from bop on) style.

Regarding your initial question, I've seen a LOT of lead sheets and scores with the combination of notation you're referring to. I think that writing swing rhythms as dotted eigth/sixteenth or even sudivided triplets conveys a stylistically wrong concept. Just go to a high school jazz festival sometime and you'll hear LITERAL interpretation of this by directors who don't know any better. But that's a whole 'nuther thread..................

In my opinion, the modern swing style usually consists of combination of straight (or almost-straight) eighths, swung eighths and stategic accents. The only time each eighth is swung would be on tunes at specific tempos (like Lil' Darlin' or Girl Talk or something like that) and that is usually a case of playing the eighths legato and adding a slight accent on the upbeats. I'll be curious to see what others might have to say about this..........................

Edited October 1, 2003 by Free For All

[uks]

As this is something of a hobby-horse for me, I've quoted below (with permission)a reply from Ron Gorow who has written a superb book on transcribing.

See www.rongorow.com for info

Start of quote:

"Like all notation, we're dealing with conventions, codes for the actual performance. Some of the swingin'est bands achieved it in spite of the notation (Basie, Woody, and an English band from the 1950s or 60s - Ted Heath. Ever hear them?

I've written charts in which there are both triplet figures and straight eighths. For instance, the first three beats of a bar are in triplet figures, then the 4th beat is two straight eighths, the last note an anticipation of a down beat. Again, subject to interpretation.

The transcriber's reasoning is anybody's guess. Keep in mind that music published before the 1980s (when the "rest of us" got laser printers) was carefully edited by traditional music editors who were very conscious of notational standards. A fake book, however, is probably created by some kid with minimal training or concern about notation. I created my own jazz fake book when about 20 but had the sense to not publish it. It was very valuable for my own training. In my book, I encourage you to transcribe and put together you own fake book, rather than buying someone else's interpretation. The experience of transcribing far outweighs the value of just owning a fake book.

Hope this clarifies.

Ron Gorow"

End of Quote.

The bit I think is important is paragraph 2 which at least explains how Ron sees the combinations being put to proper use. My best guess as to what the Fake Book transcribers are thinking of is the anticipation mentioned by Ron. On the other hand I might be being kind.