Art Pepper

[AllenLowe]

the problem was that Pepper really didn't understand what Trane was doing, rhythmically or harmonically. Same thing happened with other players from that era - I have heard Frank Morgan do some rather lame things, trying to sound contemporary. Even Jackie McLean has a certain period where I remember hearing him just running the cycle of 5ths, trying a little too hard to get 'outside.' There were a few players who figured out how to use this new freedom, James Moody for one (who was playing very outside when I last heard him in the early '90s); even Ammons was starting to stretch out and bend things a bit. But few players from that generation could really get it (I have also heard Ira Sullivan play some fascinating passing chords  - on trumpet - when I last heard him play, which was also in the '90s).

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

  On 12/19/2019 at 1:48 AM, Chuck Nessa said:

Today I would say diverted rather than diminished.

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I gotcha thats right on

[Gheorghe]

  On 12/19/2019 at 3:00 AM, AllenLowe said:

the problem was that Pepper really didn't understand what Trane was doing, rhythmically or harmonically. Same thing happened with other players from that era - I have heard Frank Morgan do some rather lame things, trying to sound contemporary. Even Jackie McLean has a certain period where I remember hearing him just running the cycle of 5ths, trying a little too hard to get 'outside.' There were a few players who figured out how to use this new freedom, James Moody for one (who was playing very outside when I last heard him in the early '90s); even Ammons was starting to stretch out and bend things a bit. But few players from that generation could really get it (I have also heard Ira Sullivan play some fascinating passing chords  - on trumpet - when I last heard him play, which was also in the '90s).

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very interesting point. I like some of Art Pepper´s work, but of Course he is not the same calibre like Trane. And yes, he "borrowed" a Little stuff from the modal Music, but it was not really his. 

Like Dexter Gordon when he played "Body and Soul" in the more modal manner Trane did it. He said he had influenced Trane (which is true) and after that got some Things back from Trane, getting influenced by him. But neither Dexter could really understand rhythmically or harmonically what Trane had done. 

[Big Beat Steve]

  On 12/19/2019 at 6:29 AM, Gheorghe said:

very interesting point. I like some of Art Pepper´s work, but of Course he is not the same calibre like Trane. And yes, he "borrowed" a Little stuff from the modal Music, but it was not really his.

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He rather is a different calibre, not a lesser one. Anything else would be an attempt at comparing apples and oranges. Maybe the "Trane" thing just was not totally for him and in his case too it was not the best idea from the start to "jump on the Trane bandwagon to stay with the trend".

[Rabshakeh]

  On 3/7/2008 at 11:30 AM, JSngry said:

 I understand how the earliest days of the Coltrane influence messed w/Pepper, but - eventually he integrated it. 

No matter, count me as part of the minority (here, anyway) which prefers later Pepper. 

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  On 3/7/2008 at 11:22 PM, Larry Kart said:

Hearing Trane as Pepper did meant that he changed a whole lot of the above, in ways that I'm sure don't need to be spelled out. Not that he couldn't/shouldn't have changed, but the results IMO often didn't work that well. .... Finally, there are fair number of later Pepper recordings where he pretty much returns to and recaptures (though not at all in a revivalistic manner) the sorts of things that Terry talks about above.

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Looking back over this (rather contentious) thread, I can see quite a lot of attention paid to the Periodisation of Pepper. 

Folks seem agreed on two periods: (1) the earlier work, and then (2) a later Trane-influenced period (which is apparently typified by Blues for the Fishermen and the Vanguard sessions). There is a bit of discussion over preferences, with a few people suggesting that the borrowed Traneisms were a little awkward and shallow; others love them.

However, a couple of the above-quoted responses also suggest another later period in which Pepper moved past the slightly awkward Traneisms that he had initially borrowed and found an integrated sound.  

Are there any recordings that are considered to capture that third and final stage?

For the record, I like late Pepper a good deal, I'm just asking out of interest.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Rabshakeh

[John L]

Rabshakeh - You mention the Village Vanguard sessions and Blues for the Fisherman.  In my mind, the former come from a time when Pepper was still quite under the spell of Coltrane, and having Elvin Jones on drums must have re-enforced the feel.   But I associated Blues for the Fisherman with Pepper's final stage, when the Coltrane influence became a bit less up front and there was more focus on getting maximal impact from each note.    Personally, I like both of those periods very much, and prefer them to his earlier work.   

[JSngry]

Yeah, I like the Vanguard stuff very much and also highly.

[soulpope]

  On 2/6/2021 at 8:15 AM, Rabshakeh said:

Looking back over this (rather contentious) thread, I can see quite a lot of attention paid to the Periodisation of Pepper. 

Folks seem agreed on two periods: (1) the earlier work, and then (2) a later Trane-influenced period (which is apparently typified by Blues for the Fishermen and the Vanguard sessions). There is a bit of discussion over preferences, with a few people suggesting that the borrowed Traneisms were a little awkward and shallow; others love them.

However, a couple of the above-quoted responses also suggest another later period in which Pepper moved past the slightly awkward Traneisms that he had initially borrowed and found an integrated sound.  

Are there any recordings that are considered to capture that third and final stage?

For the record, I like late Pepper a good deal, I'm just asking out of interest.

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As mentioned the "Blues For The Fisherman" aka Live at Ronnie Scott's Club London - June 1980 is late Art Pepper as good as it gets .... he is feeling the nearing darkness and fighting for a bit more light desperately....

[Rabshakeh]

  On 2/6/2021 at 6:29 PM, soulpope said:

As mentioned the "Blues For The Fisherman" aka Live at Ronnie Scott's Club London - June 1980 is late Art Pepper as good as it gets .... he is feeling the nearing darkness and fighting for a bit more light desperately....

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That makes sense. I had actually gotten my chronology mixed up and mistakenly thought it was recorded before the Vanguard sessions, whereas I see it is three years before.

Certainly I agree with your view on that album. It is fantastic. 

[mjzee]

  On 2/6/2021 at 8:15 AM, Rabshakeh said:

However, a couple of the above-quoted responses also suggest another later period in which Pepper moved past the slightly awkward Traneisms that he had initially borrowed and found an integrated sound.  

Are there any recordings that are considered to capture that third and final stage?

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Luckily, you can explore to your heart's content for not a lot of money: the complete box "Art Pepper - The Complete Galaxy Recordings" on legal download for $56.49.  16 full discs worth, in excellent sound quality:

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Galaxy-Recordings-Art-Pepper/dp/B008FZ8TXM/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=art+pepper+complete+galaxy&qid=1612641604&s=dmusic&sr=1-1

[HutchFan]

Rab,

Thinking about Pepper's very last recordings...

Along with soulpope's suggestion to look into the 1980 Ronnie Scott's sessions -- originally released as Blues for the Fisherman and True Blue on Mole Jazz -- I'd also suggest hearing Pepper's recordings from 1981 at the Maiden Voyage Club in L.A.  These were originally released on three Galaxy LPs: Roadgame, Art Lives, and APQ: The Maiden Voyage Sessions, Vol. 3.

If you don't want to track down the original LPs, both of these gigs have been reissued in toto as 4-CD sets:

 

The Ronnie Scott's gig featured the following rhythm section: Milcho Leviev, Tony Dumas, and Carl Burnett. 

The Maiden Voyage concerts featured George Cables, David Williams, and Carl Burnett.

 

[Rabshakeh]

Thanks everyone.

I realised now that I mistakenly had turned down a couple of those LPs that I saw in the wild. Something to look forward to when normal record shopping returns.

[sidewinder]

I think BillF mentioned that he had attended a night of that Scott’s season - or maybe I am wrong?

I caught him at RFH without Leviev and co. Certainly memorable.

[BillF]

  On 2/6/2021 at 9:38 PM, sidewinder said:

I think BillF mentioned that he had attended a night of that Scott’s season - or maybe I am wrong?

I caught him at RFH without Leviev and co. Certainly memorable.

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No, unfortunately I didn't catch Art Pepper.

You were probably recalling that I told you how Alan Barnes made the journey from Leeds College of Music to see Art at Scott's.

[HutchFan]

  On 2/6/2021 at 9:32 PM, adh1907 said:

I find Milcho Leviev really tiring over 4 CDs on that Blues for the Fisherman set. Sounds like Pepper allowed him to ramble (so he could have a break?). I know a lot of people love him but he is too much. All his solos leading to the same raptures. Vanguard sessions are much more balanced.

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Push comes to shove, I prefer Cables -- at the Vanguard and The Maiden Voyage -- over Leviev too.  

I should note that I haven't plopped for the 4-CD set from Ronnie Scott's.  I just have Blues for the Fisherman on LP.  I think it's a damn good record.  I just like Pepper with Cables a little bit more.  (Plus, I don't like Tony Dumas as much as David Williams or George Mraz, and that's part of the equation too.)

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by HutchFan

[sidewinder]

  On 2/6/2021 at 9:46 PM, BillF said:

No, unfortunately I didn't catch Art Pepper.

You were probably recalling that I told you how Alan Barnes made the journey from Leeds College of Music to see Art at Scott's.

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Aha !  

[AllenLowe]

to paraphrase myself from a few years back (above):

I spent a memorable day with Pepper in Boston, must have been '76. Nicest guy in the world, though I eventually figured out he was having me help him drive around town looking for a drug connection. As for his playing - that night he stuck to his bebop guns and and he was brilliant. His whole attempt at being "contemporary" was a classic older musician miscalculation, a complete misunderstand of Trane's chromaticism, of modalism, of the whole way in which scales could be used instead of triads as a way of sounding vertical instead of horizontal. I have heard other players do this - even Jackie McClean one night got stuck in a very futile cycle of fifths before finally seeming to say "the hell with this" and just playing. I can remember Frank Morgan trying to play a Wayne Shorter tune and sounding a bit like Pepper, simply playing little ineffectual runs and flurries of notes.

I know this sounds harsh and know-it-all, but I have just seen too many older players struggle to be "contemporary."

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

  On 2/6/2021 at 9:32 PM, adh1907 said:

I find Milcho Leviev really tiring over 4 CDs ...

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It takes me just 4 minutes, if that.

[Dub Modal]

I have a CD called I'll Remember April, Live at Foothills College from '83 with Fred Atwood, Jimmie Smith and Tommy Gumina that I think is really good. 4 tracks, 3 of which are standards. Didnt see it on YT, but if you find it give it a whirl. 

[mjzee]

  On 2/6/2021 at 11:50 PM, Dub Modal said:

I have a CD called I'll Remember April, Live at Foothills College from '83 with Fred Atwood, Jimmie Smith and Tommy Gumina that I think is really good. 4 tracks, 3 of which are standards. Didnt see it on YT, but if you find it give it a whirl. 

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Art Pepper Quartet

Art Pepper, alto sax; Tommy Gumina, polychord; Fred Atwood, bass; Jimmie Smith, drums.

"Foothill College", Los Angeles, CA, February 14, 1975

	Foothill Blues	Trio (J) PAP-25041
	I'll Remember April	-
	Here's That Rainy Day	-
	Cherokee	-

* Trio (J) PAP-25041   Art Pepper Memorial Collection, Vol. 3 - I'll Remember April
= Storyville (D) SLP 4130, STCD 4130   Art Pepper - I'll Remember April

[Dub Modal]

  On 2/7/2021 at 4:13 AM, mjzee said:

Art Pepper Quartet

Art Pepper, alto sax; Tommy Gumina, polychord; Fred Atwood, bass; Jimmie Smith, drums.

"Foothill College", Los Angeles, CA, February 14, 1975

	Foothill Blues	Trio (J) PAP-25041
	I'll Remember April	-
	Here's That Rainy Day	-
	Cherokee	-

* Trio (J) PAP-25041   Art Pepper Memorial Collection, Vol. 3 - I'll Remember April
= Storyville (D) SLP 4130, STCD 4130   Art Pepper - I'll Remember April

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That's it. Cover here - and I was wrong on the performance year, confused it with the CD release date (sorry about that - given that Art died in '82 an '83 performance was out of the question): 

And I forgot that Gumina played the polychord organ on this one. Adds a different sound to the performance. 

Also, I think reviews on this one are mixed, but I find it enjoyable too - this time from the 80s for real:

From '82 with Cables, Farrell, Tony Dumas & John Dentz. The CD sounds just OK to me but I can't criticize the playing. 

One more to add, this one with Zoot Sims from '81: 

 

[soulpope]

  On 2/6/2021 at 9:08 PM, Rabshakeh said:

Thanks everyone.

I realised now that I mistakenly had turned down a couple of those LPs that I saw in the wild. Something to look forward to when normal record shopping returns.

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As opinions about Art Pepper`s pianists were exchanged here :

https://artpepper.bandcamp.com/track/straight-no-chaser

A couple of weeks before Art's famous 1977 Vanguard performance and recording session with George Cables, George Mraz, and Elvin Jones, Art played at the Vanguard with Onaje Allen Gumbs + Gene Perla + Joe LaBarbara. It was this event that inspired John Snyder (who sponsored this trip, Art's first East Coast Tour) to inspire Les Koenig of Contemporary Records to record the subsequent date.

My main reservation about the released Contemporary Village Vanguard recordings is that the rhythm section is not melting well, aka Elvin Jones is simply too busy/strong and partially crushes George Cables.

Laurie Pepper offered the complete recordings back then as download, if interested you should contact her.

[mhatta]

I think the Atlas label recordings are often overlooked.  Those were recorded mostly in 1980, with interesting sidemen (including Lee Konitz), and Art seems to be really relaxed and just blows freely.  I guess now it can be obtained as 5 CDs set "The Hollywood All-Star Sessions".

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by mhatta

[soulpope]

  On 2/8/2021 at 9:01 AM, mhatta said:

I think the Atlas label recordings are often overlooked.  Those were recorded mostly in 1980, with interesting sidemen (including Lee Konitz), and Art seems to be really relaxed and just blows freely.  I guess now it can be obtained as 5 CDs set "The Hollywood All-Star Sessions".

 

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Yep , quite good sessions with some outstanding moments (f.i. Art Pepper with Russ Freeman on "Angel Eyes" ) ....

[DMP]

I want to agree with soulpope on the Pepper Vanguard sessions - Elvin Jones, a wonderful drummer, seems to dominate, to the detriment of the music. I was at the earlier Gumbs-Perla-LaBarbara appearance, and I always thought that has been unfairly passed over - it was a strong AND sympathetic group, Gumbs, in particular, was a revelation (apparently a last minute sub for Jacki Byard) and Pepper seemed to be knocked out by them...   For me, one of the most memorable evenings in a lifetime of listening.