Art Pepper

[mrjazzman]

Wow, I had written Pepper off as one whose personal battles was more interesting than his music although we've seen many jazz musicians experience those same battles. Since I call myself a collector(bop/hard bop)and since he did establish some prominence, I purchased "Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section" a few years ago because of the connection to Miles' rhythm section and forgot about him. Ran across his name on some list the other day and as I often do started researching. To end this story, I purchased the "Mosaic Select", the "Complete Galaxy Recordings", "Thursday Night", "Friday Night", and "Saturday Night at The Village Vanguard" plus "4 More Or Less" from the Vanguard sessions. Just rec'd the Saturday Night disc and am blown away by the cut "The Trip". He was definitly influenced by Trane. Elvin Jones was the drummer on the set.........................

[Chuck Nessa]

Yes, but I feel the Trane influence diminished his talents.

[mrjazzman]

Yes, but I feel the Trane influence diminished his talents.

Would you care to elaborate............

[David Gitin]

Agreed.

One of my favorites (pre-Trane influence) is SMACK UP, tunes written by saxophonists.

[mrjazzman]

Agreed.

One of my favorites (pre-Trane influence) is SMACK UP, tunes written by saxophonists.

I prefer the gritter, edgier tone of his later work as opposed to the light, airy sound of his earlier work........

[Chuck Nessa]

Don't have the time or inclination to elaborate other than to say he'd developed a wonderful identity 25 years before the Coltrane influence and he lost much of the influence later. I really enjoy the Vanguard recordings and suggest, if you do, you can get the complete 9 disc set for around $50-70 bucks.

[Nate Dorward]

Hey Chuck--since I'm not a big user of online CD sources, just thought I'd ask--where does one go for the Vanguard sessions at $50-70? (New or used?) I'd recently seen it for $169 Cdn--too much, but would like it for less.

[Chuck Nessa]

Hey Chuck--since I'm not a big user of online CD sources, just thought I'd ask--where does one go for the Vanguard sessions at $50-70? (New or used?) I'd recently seen it for $169 Cdn--too much, but would like it for less.

I understand it is an "underground source" but you should try Amazon.

[six string]

Count me as a big fan of the man too. I really like his Contemporary albums. I have yet to find one on that label that isn't worth owning. I have two of the Vanguard albums on vinyl but I'd trade them in if I could find the cd box set. Someone I know down in L.A. recently found a used copy of the boxset for $20.00! Yikes!

I have the album called The Trip and love the title tune. I haven't heard the Vanguard version, though I'm sure it smokes, no pun intended.

I think Meets the Rhythm Section was my introduction to Art's music too. I hear the Roost material is good but I haven't heard it.

[wordsandsounds]

I and others have picked up the box new for 50 through Newburry at Amazon, but is currently 75 right now...

[AndrewHill]

Art's work for Contemporary is uniformely excellent, with Smack Up, as mentioned above, being a favorite. +11 is another favorite.

[jlhoots]

I just obtained The Way It Was mainly for the tracks with Marsh.

The rest is nice too.

Art's widow, Laurie, continues to release previously unheard (by most) material.

[Guest bluenote82]

I'm thinking about getting "Winter Moon." How is that one everybody?

[sidewinder]

Hey Chuck--since I'm not a big user of online CD sources, just thought I'd ask--where does one go for the Vanguard sessions at $50-70? (New or used?) I'd recently seen it for $169 Cdn--too much, but would like it for less.

Newbury had it at $49.99 via Amazon - I'm not sure if it's still available at that price from that source. The set is indispendable !

I have a Japanese Contemporary 3LP set with some of the material - and in great sound - but this is one occasion where the full monty does it justice. From the booklet it sounds like he was totally manic preparing for this gig - holed up in the bathroom all night writing tunes for the session etc.

Edited March 7, 2008 by sidewinder

[Guest bluenote82]

Yes, but I feel the Trane influence diminished his talents.

I think 'Trane's influence diminished the talents of alot of promising saxophonists, but who's to say that all of these players don't have a unique style of their own.

Edited March 7, 2008 by bluenote82

[Claude]

I just obtained The Way It Was mainly for the tracks with Marsh.

The rest is nice too.

I *think* that album (released in 1972) is now redundant, since all the music has been released in more complete form elsewhere. The Pepper/Marsh session is available on the CD Art Pepper with Warne Marsh, and the other tracks are available as bonus tracks on the OJC CDs of the sessions at which they were recorded.

[BillF]

I have thirteen Art Pepper albums in my collection, the latest recorded in 1960.

[mrjazzman]

Yes, but I feel the Trane influence diminished his talents.

sounds like you're saying something negative about trane....................

[John L]

Truely love Art Pepper. Yes, many people felt that the Trane influence nearly destroyed the sweet sound he had that made him so unique, but I think he came out of it just fine. The Vanguard sets are amazing not only for the musicianship, but when you read about his physical and mental state when those were recorded, it is unbelievable. There is the great story in Straight Life about the Meet the Rhythm section session. Art had not played in 6 months, spending all day shooting up. His wife set up the session without his knowledge and she woke him up and told him he had to record that day: he cursed her up and down and went to get his sax which he hadn't put away properly six months before so it was damaged. He went into the session without a clue what to play and the musicians suggested things that they thought would sound good with his style. To hear the final results, you would never know any of this. He plays brilliantly. He was quite a musician and a tragic figure.

The whole autobiography gives the impression that Art Pepper was such a natural genius that he hardly had to even think about music or practice his craft in order to create what he did. While I believe that Pepper was endowed with rather extraordinary musical sensibilities, I still take some of these stories with a grain of salt. It seems like Pepper plays up the natural genius persona deliberately in the book, and maybe he goes a bit overboard sometimes. Nobody plays the way Art Pepper played without tremendous hard work and dedication.

It would be interesting to hear Laurie's views on this.

[Stereojack]

Yes, but I feel the Trane influence diminished his talents.

sounds like you're saying something negative about trane....................

I don't take it that way. I have to agree with Chuck, in that I find Pepper's earlier style more compelling than after he came under the Trane influence. How does that diminish Trane's greatness?

[JSngry]

Don't have the time or inclination to elaborate other than to say he'd developed a wonderful identity 25 years before the Coltrane influence and he lost much of the influence later. I really enjoy the Vanguard recordings...

Ah, here we have the crux of the matter! I understand how the earliest days of the Coltrane influence messed w/Pepper, but - eventually he integrated it. Chuck says he "lost much of" it, which may or may not be another way of saying the same thing, but I don't think that Pepper of the mid-70s and beyond (which includes the Vanguard material) was what it was if he hadn't gone through Trane the way he did. In other words, if Pepper had never heard Trane, I don't think that he would have evolved to the point to where he played like he did by the time of those recordings.

No matter, count me as part of the minority (here, anyway) which prefers later Pepper. Similarly, I prefer later Mobley. In both cases, the later work ain't as "pretty" as the earlier, but there's an...immediacy, a feeling that there's no longer a layer of "music" between the music and the emotion, if that makes any sense. Which is not to say that that earlier layer was superfluous, or shallow, or anything like that. Far from it. Just that it seems like in the later work, it was no longer needed, that both players might have felt put upon, perhaps even belabored, to go back and play with that vibe again.

As always, mileages can and will vary.

[Rosco]

I'm thinking about getting "Winter Moon." How is that one everybody?

As good as jazz-with-strings gets. Make of that what you will.

[Quasimado]

I'm thinking about getting "Winter Moon." How is that one everybody?

As good as jazz-with-strings gets. Make of that what you will.

Sorry, don't agree. Some of the string writing is nice ... and Art plays reasonably well... but then you also have 2 beat on some tracks ... and Art was never in Bird's league.

Q

[BruceM]

Coltrane influence????

The only thing that came out of Art Pepper's horn was his own experiences. I was lucky enough to see im live late in his career and he played a 20 minute blues that was the most emotionally devasting thing I have heard in 40 years of listening to music.

I recommend you listen to a recording that was issued as "Blues for The Fisherman" if you are lucky enough to find a copy.

Edited March 7, 2008 by BruceM

[Kyo]

Coltrane influence????

The only thing that came out of Art Pepper's horn was his own experiences.

Well, Art disagrees with you, but what does he know about that...