Origins of Smooth Jazz -- Not a surprise

[Larry Kart]

And re:the dancing thing - I think you'll find that there was a cetain "elegant" quality to Disco/disco dancing that only partially translated as "gay" to a lot of "blue collar" or otherwise "primal"-oriented white males. In the Swing Era, even, to have heard my Dad tell it, a really good dancer was looked upon with a combination of envy & suspicion by the "regular" white males of his time. They fifured the guy was either a "wolf", a hustler, or secretly gay - until proven otherwise.

My late father-in-law and mother-in-law -- born in the mid-1920s in small towns in Kansas -- were dedicated jitterbugs when young, or so I was told. Once, when they were in their late 50s or early 60s, I was over at their house when someone put on an old Glenn Miller record, something like "Little Brown Jug," and they danced to it. They weren't Savoy Ballroom flashy, but their time and sense of swing were fantastic -- total interaction with the music. And I'm quite sure that Don Lentz (that was my father-in-law's name) was never regarded with suspicion by anyone along those lines by any "regular" white male; he being one of them quintessentially, in the good sense. There was an almost genetic tradition in that family of being good on your feet. Don was a meet-winning high jumper in high school; and Jack Dobson, my wife's uncle on her mother's side, though he had a fireplug-like physique, was a remarkably skilled and graceful roller skater, could skate backwards as fast and as fluidly as he could forwards, and that was damn fast.

[JSngry]

And re:the dancing thing - I think you'll find that there was a cetain "elegant" quality to Disco/disco dancing that only partially translated as "gay" to a lot of "blue collar" or otherwise "primal"-oriented white males. In the Swing Era, even, to have heard my Dad tell it, a really good dancer was looked upon with a combination of envy & suspicion by the "regular" white males of his time. They fifured the guy was either a "wolf", a hustler, or secretly gay - until proven otherwise.

I'm quite sure that Don Lentz (that was my father-in-law's name) was never regarded with suspicion by anyone along those lines by any "regular" white male; he being one of them quintessentially, in the good sense. There was an almost genetic tradition in that family of being good on your feet. Don was a meet-winning high jumper in high school;

Well that.s what I mean. A Good Athlete and A Good Dancer was A Total Package. A Good Athlete alone or A Good Athlete And An OK Dancer was....normal. But A Good Dancer, or especially A Damn Good Dancer, with no other "traditional" c.v.s...hey.

I'm not saying that White Guys Never Danced, or that Social Dancing Was Never Really Popular or anything like that, just that the "tradition" of White American Men Not Embracing Too Much Elegance For Fear Of Compromising The Perception Of Their Manhood is not a relatively recent phenomenon.

[Larry Kart]

Well that.s what I mean. A Good Athlete and A Good Dancer was A Total Package. A Good Athlete alone or A Good Athlete And An OK Dancer was....normal. But A Good Dancer, or especially A Damn Good Dancer, with no other "traditional" c.v.s...hey.

I'm not saying that White Guys Never Danced, or that Social Dancing Was Never Really Popular or anything like that, just that the "tradition" of White American Men Not Embracing Too Much Elegance For Fear Of Compromising The Perception Of Their Manhood is not a relatively recent phenomenon.

OK -- interesting. But, as you've said to me several times on other threads, I think you're over-thinking things here. In particular, given the nature of American society, in most places and at most times, if one possesses a reasonable taste for physical fun and a good deal of hand-eye co-ordination, you're going to successfully participate as an adolescent in some form of athletics and also enjoy and be good at social dancing.

[JSngry]

Of course, but if you do have these skills and don't "do" athletics but do dance at a more than "functional" skill level, then you've got some 'splainin' to do. And if you have even average skills and don't really dance too much at any level, nobody thinks anything of it.

As you said, the nature of American society, which was kinda my point.

[JSngry]

FWIW - my Dad (from Sterling, Illinois, btw), told me several times about how their HS basketball coach urged them to take dance lessons to improve their on-court coordination. Also that the coach had to plead with his team that "dancing isn't for sissies".

My dad took a few lessons, and learned later on in life that "the ladies" enjoyed a man who was a good dancer. But a man who played too much to the ladies, hey, what was up w'that?

I'm just sayin'...

[Chas]

To codify the men and dancing thing -

Being able to dance does not mean you're gay

Being interested in watching dance competitions means you might be gay

Being interested in ice dancing , either as participant or spectator , means you are definitely gay

[Larry Kart]

FWIW - my Dad (from Sterling, Illinois, btw), told me several times about how their HS basketball coach urged them to take dance lessons to improve their on-court coordination. Also that the coach had to plead with his team that "dancing isn't for sissies".

My dad took a few lessons, and learned later on in life that "the ladies" enjoyed a man who was a good dancer. But a man who played too much to the ladies, hey, what was up w'that?

I'm just sayin'...

Your Dad was a Warrior?

[JSngry]

Warrior? I thought they were Spartans, but to be honest, I don't really know. He was born in 1918, did they change mascots or something? I still have his old letter sweater, though, somewhere. Yellow & blue.

Next time I go visit my mom, I'll try and look at his old yearbooks.

Ont thing I definitely remember though, was that his had a good buddy back then named Orlo Spatz, which to this day is one of the coolest/weirdest sounding names I've ever heard anywhere.

[Larry Kart]

Warrior? I thought they were Spartans, but to be honest, I don't really know. He was born in 1918, did they change mascots or something? I still have his old letter sweater, though, somewhere. Yellow & blue.

Next time I go visit my mom, I'll try and look at his old yearbooks.

Ont thing I definitely remember though, was that his had a good buddy back then named Orlo Spatz, which to this day is one of the coolest/weirdest sounding names I've ever heard anywhere.

They might have changed the name, but those are still the colors.

Orlo Spatz is excellent. My wife recalled from her parents' generation or thereabouts Clyde Baysore and Delbert Finniger.

On "Vic and Sade," members of Vic's lodge included Hunky J. Sponger, Y.Y. Flirch, J.J.J.J. Stunbolt, Harry Fie, I. Edson Box, Homer U. McDancy, H.K. Fleeber, Robert and Slobert Hink, and O.X. Bellyman. And Vic and Sade themselves were Victor and Sadie Gook.

[Larry Kart]

And don't forget Vic and Uncle Fletcher's good friend Rishigan Fishigan from Sishigan, Michigan.

[Teasing the Korean]

Being able to dance does not mean you're gay

Oh, fucking great. I've been hitting on the wrong guys all these years...Thanks.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Ah, now this is more like the Organissimo threads we have come to love and respect!

MG

[danasgoodstuff]

"I won't dance, you can't make me..."

[JSngry]

"I won't dance, you can't make me..."

In review (of sorts, or not): http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...41&hl=dance

[BruceH]

In the White communities, the preferred of dancing by moist males in the Rock And Beyond Era is a less elegant, more "overt" expression of...whatever you call it, tension, angst, raw sexual agression, whatever.

"Moist" males?? You mean, sweaty ones?

[Teasing the Korean]

"I won't dance, you can't make me..."

When you dance you're charming and you're gentle.

[crabgrass]

I've always thought that the origins of "smooth jazz" were found back on the CTI label in the 70s... things like Stanley Turrentine's "Sugar" album and the aformentioned George Benson... and it's popularity was realized first by Grover Washington's "Winelight" album.

To me it's simply a fusion of soul/R&B with jazz instrumentation. It's origins are as much "jazz" as, say... Mahavishnu Orchestra or Weather Report. It's just a type of fusion.

[Jazzmoose]

I only read the first page of this thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I think a lot of you are misreading the opening post. It doesn't state that the music itself was created by radio programmers, only the format, which was then given the misleading name "smooth jazz". I don't think the author had any intention of claiming that these unnamed programmers had any hand in directing the content of the music, just the mix of the format. And for those of you who haven't had anyone in your life who actually listened to this stuff, the Smooth Jazz format is more than just pseudo-jazz; it also includes a mix of R&B and even rock. The only common element is that the music has to be non-edgy, if you will. If it can wake you up, it doesn't work...

In other words, the author is making the point that "Smooth Jazz" was created by pulling existing music together under the single marketing term that it is now known by. It wasn't a natural development from previous genres, which is evident by the fact that it actually contains work from previously existing unrelated genres.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Jazzmoose

[Dan Gould]

I only read the first page of this thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I think a lot of you are misreading the opening post. It doesn't state that the music itself was created by radio programmers, only the format, which was then given the misleading name "smooth jazz". I don't think the author had any intention of claiming that these unnamed programmers had any hand in directing the content of the music, just the mix of the format. And for those of you who haven't had anyone in your life who actually listened to this stuff, the Smooth Jazz format is more than just pseudo-jazz; it also includes a mix of R&B and even rock. The only common element is that the music has to be non-edgy, if you will. If it can wake you up, it doesn't work...

In other words, the author is making the point that "Smooth Jazz" was created by pulling existing music together under the single marketing term that it is now known by. It wasn't a natural development from previous genres, which is evident by the fact that it actually contains work from previously existing unrelated genres.

Well let's go back to what was said:

Smooth jazz is not a cousin to legitimate jazz, in fact it isn't even

related. When the radio consultants who cooked it up in focus groups

had settled on a sound, they needed a name. They went back to focus

groups and discovered that the term "jazz" had a high recognition

factor so they tacked that name on. The unfortunate result is a

generation of people who think they understand jazz, but in fact have

never heard it.

Smooth jazz wasn't part of the century-long artistic

development of jazz, so it's not correct to even call it an art form.

The fact is that a large proportion of the music pulled together to become "smooth jazz" comes directly out of the century-long artistic development, i.e., all of the groups that started in "fusion" and became core "smooth jazz" artists. I don't think anyone was claiming that the radio consultants "created" the music; the statement is simply wrong when it doesn't understand that most of the instrumental music programmed on Smooth Jazz stations came out of the fusion era, i.e., Spyro Gyra, the Yellowjackets, up through Jeff Lorber who begat the Lord of the Smooth Jazz Realm, the G-Spot himself. Not to mention George Benson and Herb Alpert.

Now, I actually happen to agree with this statement, "The unfortunate result is a

generation of people who think they understand jazz, but in fact have

never heard it" but that is only because I believe that fusion was a misstep in the evolution of the music away from the core values. So naturally a further evolution into "smooth 'jazz'" would result in such a slight to non-existent "jazz" content that yes, fans who think they understand jazz don't in fact have a clue about it.

But to say that there is no connection between the instrumental music known as "smooth jazz" and the historical evolution of the music remains ludicrous.

[Niko]

Now, I actually happen to agree with this statement, "The unfortunate result is a

generation of people who think they understand jazz, but in fact have

never heard it"

1) i can't believe there ever was a whole generation listening to smooth jazz

2) what does it mean to "understand jazz"? who can deservedly claim to have understood jazz? someone who listens to hank mobley the way others are listening to the Yellowjackets? what's wrong with people wrongly assuming they have understood something if it doesn't do anyone harm? (i mean, in rocket science i would see the problem but here..)

[Dan Gould]

Now, I actually happen to agree with this statement, "The unfortunate result is a

generation of people who think they understand jazz, but in fact have

never heard it"

1) i can't believe there ever was a whole generation listening to smooth jazz

2) what does it mean to "understand jazz"? who can deservedly claim to have understood jazz? someone who listens to hank mobley the way others are listening to the Yellowjackets? what's wrong with people wrongly assuming they have understood something if it doesn't do anyone harm? (i mean, in rocket science i would see the problem but here..)

According to AMG,

A phenomenally successful instrumentalist whose recordings make the pop charts, Kenny G's sound has been a staple on adult contemporary and smooth jazz radio stations since the mid-'80s, making him a household name.

so if we agree that he is the fount of all things smooth, then people have been listening to smooth jazz for over 20 years, the usual definition of a "generation".

I think you're putting to much emphasis on "understand" - its more like fans of the G-ster think "OK, I know what jazz is about" and I think that most of us would say that you don't anything about jazz from listening to him.

As for the harm done, let me try an analogy. Let's say that some poor lost soul mistook the New York Mets for the New York Yankees. His knowledge of the Yankees would be a franchise of no great success, with two world championships in three World Series appearances in nearly fifty years of existence. I think true Yankee fans would very much want that person to know that the team in fact has a far more illustrious history covering most of the last century, and that he knows nothing about the "real Yankee franchise".

[seeline]

"I won't dance, you can't make me..."

When you dance you're charming and you're gentle.

Especially when you do the Continental...

[Niko]

According to AMG,

A phenomenally successful instrumentalist whose recordings make the pop charts, Kenny G's sound has been a staple on adult contemporary and smooth jazz radio stations since the mid-'80s, making him a household name.

so if we agree that he is the fount of all things smooth, then people have been listening to smooth jazz for over 20 years, the usual definition of a "generation".

I think you're putting to much emphasis on "understand" - its more like fans of the G-ster think "OK, I know what jazz is about" and I think that most of us would say that you don't anything about jazz from listening to him.

As for the harm done, let me try an analogy. Let's say that some poor lost soul mistook the New York Mets for the New York Yankees. His knowledge of the Yankees would be a franchise of no great success, with two world championships in three World Series appearances in nearly fifty years of existence. I think true Yankee fans would very much want that person to know that the team in fact has a far more illustrious history covering most of the last century, and that he knows nothing about the "real Yankee franchise".

guess with a european perspective it is easy to overlook how big a business smooth jazz actually is... concerning your analogy, you mean, we, the true jazz fans, should be hurt by those who think jazz is about kenny g; what i tried to say was something along the lines of "don't take these idiots to seriously/don't be hurt", those who truly appreciate kenny g wouldn't want the real deal anyway, and those who say they dislike jazz because they dislike kenny g (are they the majority?) should be easy to cure...

[Dan Gould]

I think it boils down to a highly possessive attitude toward the term "jazz" - its been appropriated, illegitimately, to market non-jazz music, and fans of the real stuff (or at least some of them) find that especially odious.

[seeline]

"Odious"? Nope. It's a label, for marketing purposes - that's all.

There was a time when I looked down on it, and (admittedly) I still don't care for the music, but... live and let live. there are *far* worse "vices" (IMO) than being a fan of Najee or Chris Botti - and there are plenty of talented musicians who have work as a result of the genre's popularity.

As far as I can tell, it's the current incarnation of the kind of music that made Andre Kostelanetz, Mantovani and others popular/famous. It's hardly "evil."

I have a lot of musical "guilty" (or not so guilty) pleasures, so I really don't feel like I'm in any kind of position to cast the first stone, y'know?!

Edited March 5, 2008 by seeline