Great Sonny Stitt

[Werf]

I saw/heard the Basie band in the late 70s and early 80s live, when the Count was still healthy. I've also caught the LCJO a few times in the past 20 years. No comparison. Even when the Count could barely play, when his health was failing but he was on the bandstand, with Thad Jones leading the band, the Basie Band killed in comparison to LCJO.

[Larry Kart]

I went and saw the Lincoln Center Jazz Orhcestra (and Wynton) when they were in town and it was good, ok...Joe Temperly sounded great as always. But let's say I could go back in time and hear 1959 Basie or Ellington. Same seat in the same hall. I would have been disappointed and let down. Perhaps I'm making my favorite musicians out to be better than they really are, putting them on a pedestal...?

Why would you have been disappointed by 1959 Basie or Ellington if you could have gone back in time? Or do I misunderstand what you're saying? Seems like from what you said before that your likely reaction to 1959 Basie or Ellington would have been the opposite.

Hi Larry,

Sorry for the confusion. Hopefully, my likely reaction would have been quite the opposite. You know how they say, "anticipation's half the fun"? Well, maybe all of my listening, reading and research on these bands have made them better or bigger than they were during their day. I guess what I was trying to convey (in this instance), was, for a long time, I have regarded Ellington's and Basie's band from the late 50s as pure perfection based on the recordings. If I were to go back in time and actually HEAR them live, perhaps my perception might have changed. In short, maybe I would have been dissapointed by the bands...my expectations of what they could do might have been too high.

Does that make sense?

I mean I'm 27, I didn't get to hear all of the Giants of Jazz. I've heard Eric Alexander several time live and he is a great saxophonist, but I would still prefer to listen to Dexter or Coltrane. So with that said, if I took this time machine to see the Ellington band of the late 50s, I might say, "Oh, well this band is good, but man, that Blanton-Webster band was much better!"

Gotcha.

[Larry Kart]

absolutely-- not for the playing per se but-- and you might be a little young to remember this firsthand-- but for its real-time import, both as 1939 hit and cultural signifier.

studio

"live" (on film)

Sonny Stitt's just another finger flapping gasbag by comparison.

And if other "Cherokee"s we must, I'll start with Bud

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHoQkxQuHFY

Brownie--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y6U0TD3z34

Johnny Griffin--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XIPDG2GBIs

But Barnet and Bird reign supreme, Max too, of course.

Barnet was a fine bandleader and a fascinating guy, and his "Cherokee" is good gutty fun and he plays nice on it, but compared to, say, Chu Berry's "Shufflin' at the Hollywood" (from the same year) with Lionel Hampton? As a player Barnet was not in that league, as he himself would have been willing to admit. So what's the great cultural signifier thing about Barnet's "Cherokee"? That it was a white band that sounded kinda like a black band and had a hit while doing so?

About Chuck's "alcohol" (which I think is the answer to the Zoot conundrum), I'm reminded of the time Al Cohn was playing the Cafe Montmarte in Copenhagen and someone asked him if he'd like to try that venerable Danish brew Elephant Beer. "No, man," said Al, "I drink to forget."

[JSngry]

I think Zoot definitely played "fresher" earlier on, and also hear a certain "deadening" as the years went by, but..life does that to people at least as often as it doesn't, ya' know?

But then there's the career of his running buddy Al Cohn, who was very good in the '50s and '60s and then just got better and better and stronger and stronger, at times almost amazingly so (especially rhythmically), right up until the very end and without undergoing any profound stylistic change or absorbing any "advanced" influences. Thus it's not like I'm holding Zoot up to some imaginary or elitist standard.

Different lives. Cohn parlayed all that studio work into a business & ended up doing quite well writing chats for shows and revelries and follies and dollies and all that stuff. Accepted and succeeded "non-jazz" challenges, so the playing itself, when he did it, wasn't his daily grind.

Zoot kept on being Zoot, taking Zoot gigs. I'm sure he did well, but people who drink a lot and never really variate their world usually end up being the part of the toothpaste that never makes it out of the tube, even after you start rolling & squeezing the last bits out.

I'm all for personal introversion and isolation, but only if you can do it without letting it keep you in the tube until the time comes for the tube to get tossed in the trash.

[AllenLowe]

I don't know it it's true, but there's a story of Zoot sleeping in the back seat of a car while Al Cohn (who had only one working eye) was driving and while someone else with also only one working eye was sitting in the front next to him - Zoot was sleeping it off, but woke up long enough to say "you two keep your eyes on the road."

Edited October 11, 2011 by AllenLowe

[Fer Urbina]

I don't know it it's true, but there's a story of Zoot sleeping in the back seat of a car while Al Cohn (who had only one working eye) was driving and while someone else with also only one working eye was sitting in the front next to him - Zoot was sleeping it off, but woke up long enough to say "you two keep your eyes on the road."

IIRC, the other person was RCA and later Colpix producer Jack Lewis. The story is on Bill Crow's book and elsewhere.

F

[Fer Urbina]

Barnet was a fine bandleader and a fascinating guy, and his "Cherokee" is good gutty fun and he plays nice on it, but compared to, say, Chu Berry's "Shufflin' at the Hollywood" (from the same year) with Lionel Hampton? As a player Barnet was not in that league, as he himself would have been willing to admit. So what's the great cultural signifier thing about Barnet's "Cherokee"? That it was a white band that sounded kinda like a black band and had a hit while doing so?

How relevant this is, I don't know, but Basie recorded "Cherokee" a few months earlier than Barnet. It's faster than Barnet's but the theme is too sirupy despite Jo Jones' efforts. Also, it spreads over two sides of 78-RPM record, with Lester Young's solo caught in the middle.

F

[Peter Friedman]

We don't all hear the same things. I have been a Zoot Sims fan from the days of his earliest recordings. I have heard just about everything he has recorded. Though I very much like his early things, in my opinion, his playing gained in richness and depth over the years and his Pablo recordings are probably my favorite examples of his work on record.

His sound broadened and moved a bit (just a slight bit) closer to that of Ben Webster. But those recordings with Jimmy Rowles, as well as with a few other pianists during the Pablo period

stand out to me as marvelous examples of his playing.

I definitely agree with Larry regarding Al Cohn. He got better and better with age. Those Al Cohn recordings on Xanadu with Barry Harris and Jimmy Rowles are , in my view, outstanding.

[golfcrazy1984]

We don't all hear the same things. I have been a Zoot Sims fan from the days of his earliest recordings. I have heard just about everything he has recorded. Though I very much like his early things, in my opinion, his playing gained in richness and depth over the years and his Pablo recordings are probably my favorite examples of his work on record.

His sound broadened and moved a bit (just a slight bit) closer to that of Ben Webster. But those recordings with Jimmy Rowles, as well as with a few other pianists during the Pablo period

stand out to me as marvelous examples of his playing.

I definitely agree with Larry regarding Al Cohn. He got better and better with age. Those Al Cohn recordings on Xanadu with Barry Harris and Jimmy Rowles are , in my view, outstanding.

I too agree with you Peter, Zoot's sound gained complexity with time. And the Pablos are my favorite. Zoot was an amazing player, no one had his sense of rhythm. The recording Basie & Zoot is one of my favorites from that period. I also wish the Gershwin CD was in better sound...

[paul secor]

We don't all hear the same things. I have been a Zoot Sims fan from the days of his earliest recordings. I have heard just about everything he has recorded. Though I very much like his early things, in my opinion, his playing gained in richness and depth over the years and his Pablo recordings are probably my favorite examples of his work on record.

His sound broadened and moved a bit (just a slight bit) closer to that of Ben Webster. But those recordings with Jimmy Rowles, as well as with a few other pianists during the Pablo period

stand out to me as marvelous examples of his playing.

I definitely agree with Larry regarding Al Cohn. He got better and better with age. Those Al Cohn recordings on Xanadu with Barry Harris and Jimmy Rowles are , in my view, outstanding.

I too agree with you Peter, Zoot's sound gained complexity with time. And the Pablos are my favorite. Zoot was an amazing player, no one had his sense of rhythm. The recording Basie & Zoot is one of my favorites from that period. I also wish the Gershwin CD was in better sound...

I wish the Gershwin had a different rhythm section.

[gmonahan]

I don't know it it's true, but there's a story of Zoot sleeping in the back seat of a car while Al Cohn (who had only one working eye) was driving and while someone else with also only one working eye was sitting in the front next to him - Zoot was sleeping it off, but woke up long enough to say "you two keep your eyes on the road."

gregmo

[medjuck]

Oooh, maybe next time Sonny will "win"! (But he can't beat Art Pepper ].)

Actually I think he does beat Art on "The Hollywood Sessions". (Much as I like Art.)

[AllenLowe]

Sonny was good; even if he called me a "parasite." I'm sure 7/4 would agree with him.

Edited October 13, 2011 by AllenLowe

[Alexander Hawkins]

Some nice Al and Zoot!

[Larry Kart]

Some nice Al and Zoot!

Love that clip.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Yes! Particularly like the arrangement...simple, and really swinging...

[MomsMobley]

Dr. Juck-- yes but you must remember this Art Pepper threw that fight-- he took a dive.

Why should he, at that point, have a dick waving contest with Sonny's Stiff one? Praise be the priapic but come on.

Art "Living Legend" alone-- alone!!-- kills Sonny and that's not even a peak achievement, at least not in all ways.

Sonny was good at a few things and his physical vitality was laudable but how many times you gonna lift the same goddamn weight before trying something else?

I did like some of SS' stage patter (awesome fur coat too).

Oooh, maybe next time Sonny will "win"! (But he can't beat Art Pepper ].)

Actually I think he does beat Art on "The Hollywood Sessions". (Much as I like Art.)

Edited October 15, 2011 by MomsMobley

[Leeway]

I'm with Medjuck on this. I consider myself a pretty strong Art Pepper fan. Art's music got me into jazz. But I think the Hollywood Sessions are among his weaker efforts. IIRC, they were made for the Japanese mainstream market, and the resulting music is a bit tame overall, a bit too laid-back. As with all of Art's music, there are moments of passion and lyric beauty, but the general character of the box set is pleasant, mellow music. Not bad mind you, just not Art's best.

[AllenLowe]

well, Stitt was better than the later, post-comeback Pepper, when he tried to be John Coltrane -

Edited October 15, 2011 by AllenLowe

[MomsMobley]

Lou-- but who said the Hollywood sessions were first rate? It was a rare(-ish) example of Art sounding-- as well as living-- with expedience foremost. if those sides hadn't been semi-elusive Japanese and then slapped in that handsome looking box, we'd lack almost nothing save Jack Sheldon. This is why I maintain Pepper threw the fight-- he knew it was mostly bullshit and didn't care to fake it. Whereas with Sonny, all you need do is flip his "on" switch and-- jesus christ, there he goes again (lick lick lick lick lick lick and just because Moms likes it swirling down there doesn't make it great MUSIC.)

Galaxy Pepper alone >>>>>>> all Stitt (as "art.")

I'm with Medjuck on this. I consider myself a pretty strong Art Pepper fan. Art's music got me into jazz. But I think the Hollywood Sessions are among his weaker efforts. IIRC, they were made for the Japanese mainstream market, and the resulting music is a bit tame overall, a bit too laid-back. As with all of Art's music, there are moments of passion and lyric beauty, but the general character of the box set is pleasant, mellow music. Not bad mind you, just not Art's best.

[kh1958]

Who here saw Sonny Stitt live? How was it?

[Larry Kart]

Saw him many times. Standard Stitt mostly, but as I mentioned earlier on this thread, I caught him once with Mal Waldron in the rhythm section and Stitt paying attention to Mal's motivic comping, and that was something else. I had a nice between-sets conversation with Mal, too.

[AllenLowe]

I saw Stitt at Paul's Mall, maybe 1976. He was on fire (I think I have a pic; that's where we yelled at each other; Pat Martino opened). Also saw him at Broadway Charlie's, Mannhattan, maybe 1977. He was more mechanical, but still terrific.

[Peter Friedman]

well, Stitt was better than the later, post-comeback Pepper, when he tried to be John Coltrane -

That post-comback Pepper period was a very mixed bag in my opinion. At times Pepper's playing was emotionally very deep and moving.

At other times he seemed to be trapped in a Coltrane focused box that was unsatisfying to this listener.

My favorite Art Pepper recordings are most of those he made for Contemporary. Contrary to Mom's the Living Legend session was not one

at the top of my list.

[Leeway]

I like a lot of post-comeback/jail/addiction Pepper (although the addiction issues probably never quite went away). I do dig "The Trip" and "Living Legend." I recall one album (on Fresh Sound?) of a San Francisco gig, where Pepper clearly is trying to imitate Coltrane; not good. While "The Trip" does have at least one extended cut, it is much more Pepper than Coltrane. What I like about the later Pepper is the candor and deep feeling. He is invested in the music in a way I don't think he was earlier in the career. Of course, the early work has its own virtues.