Shelly Manne & His Men

[Kyo]

I'm trying to piece together a rough discography of Shelly Manne & His Men on Contemporary. So far I have:

Vol. 1: The West Coast Sound

Vol. 2: New Works

Vol. 3: ???

Vol. 4: Swinging Sounds

Vol. 5: More Swinging Sounds (doesn't really say Vol. 5 on the CD though)

Vol. 6: Concerto for Clarinet and Combo

Vol. 7: The Gambit

+ the Black Hawk and Manne-Hole sets and the "Yesterdays" live disc on Pablo.

Half of Vol. 6 ended up on the Vol. 2 CD with Sophisticated Rabbit,

Bags' Groove and My Old Flame still not available on CD as it seems.

What was Vol. 3? Was it Shelly Manne's The Three (and The Two)?

Edited January 26, 2008 by Kyo

[Big Beat Steve]

There's one oddity in your listing:

"Shelly Manne & His Men Vol. 2" (Contemporary C-2511) (New Works must be some sort of reissue tag) was actually released before "The West Coast Sound". "West Coast Sound" (C-3507) was a 12in reissue of the 10in disc C-2503 called just "Shelly Manne & His Men" but was augmented by 4 tracks from 1955. So C-2503 really ought to be considered Vol. 1.

If you want to, you might consider "West Coast Sound" (on which those 4 tracks from 1955 were new) to be Vol. 3.

This would fit in with the sequence because it predated Vol. 4 (Swinging Sounds, C-3516).

"The Three and The Two" (the 12in reissue of 2 10in LP's) wasn't issued in this form until 1960 and the musicians on the recording dates that made up these two original 10in records (Russ Freeman on "The Two" and Jimmy Giuffre and Shorty Rogers on "The Three") are no "Men" lineup so they do not really fit in the "Men" group's discography.

[Kyo]

There's one oddity in your listing:

"Shelly Manne & His Men Vol. 2" (Contemporary C-2511) (New Works must be some sort of reissue tag) was actually released before "The West Coast Sound". "West Coast Sound" (C-3507) was a 12in reissue of the 10in disc C-2503 called just "Shelly Manne & His Men" but was augmented by 4 tracks from 1955. So C-2503 really ought to be considered Vol. 1.

If you want to, you might consider "West Coast Sound" (on which those 4 tracks from 1955 were new) to be Vol. 3.

This would fit in with the sequence because it predated Vol. 4 (Swinging Sounds, C-3516).

I've done some more research and I think it was like this:

Vol. 1: CEP 4001

April 6, 1953

Mallets

You And The Night And The Music

La Mucura

Gazelle

Vol. 2: CEP 4007

July 20, 1953

You're My Thrill

Fugue

Afrodesia

Sweets

Both were combined on the 10" LP C2503 (simply called Vol. 1 again), the four tracks

from 1955 were then added to the 12" LP C3507 - "Vol. 1 - The West Coast Sound".

So C2511 (Vol. 2, "New Works" - and no, that's not a reissue tag, it's just really small on the cover)

could be considered the third volume in the series. I can see why they just called that one Vol. 2

(despite that earlier 7" EP release it is the second LP, after all) but why they went on to call the

next LP Vol. 4 and not just Vol. 3 puzzles me. I would guess that's how it happened, though.

"The Three and The Two" (the 12in reissue of 2 10in LP's) wasn't issued in this form until 1960

I know, that's why I put "and The Two" in brackets.

and the musicians on the recording dates that made up these two original 10in records (Russ Freeman on "The Two" and Jimmy Giuffre and Shorty Rogers on "The Three") are no "Men" lineup so they do not really fit in the "Men" group's discography.

I know that as well, I was just trying to make some sense of the missing Vol. 3 and

an album called "The Three" seemed like it might be the one despite all that.

Edited January 27, 2008 by Kyo

[Chuck Nessa]

Confusion abounds 'cause of the transition from 10" lps to "12. How about the Lennie Niehaus record called "Vol 3, the Octet #2.

Not as bad as the Clef versions of the Tatum sessions.

[JamesAHarrod]

I'm trying to piece together a rough discography of Shelly Manne & His Men on Contemporary. So far I have:

Vol. 1: The West Coast Sound

Vol. 2: New Works

Vol. 3: ???

Vol. 4: Swinging Sounds

Vol. 5: More Swinging Sounds (doesn't really say Vol. 5 on the CD though)

Vol. 6: Concerto for Clarinet and Combo

Vol. 7: The Gambit

+ the Black Hawk and Manne-Hole sets and the "Yesterdays" live disc on Pablo.

Half of Vol. 6 ended up on the Vol. 2 CD with Sophisticated Rabbit,

Bags' Groove and My Old Flame still not available on CD as it seems.

What was Vol. 3? Was it Shelly Manne's The Three (and The Two)?

As Chuck Nessa has mentioned the transition from 10" to 12" LPs caused some confusion, especially with the Lighthouse All Stars LPs where Volume One was actually on the Lighthouse label originally, as a 12" LP. Then the first Lighthouse LP on the Contemporary label was a 10" LP, C-2501, and labelled Volume 2.

Volume One of Shelly Manne and His Men was C-2503. Volume Two was C-2511. Volume Three was C-2516. All of these were 10" LPs. Volume Three is not with Shelly Manne and His Men, it is with Shorty Rogers and Jimmy Giuffre. The fourth 10" LP with Shelly was C-2518 and simply labelled "Shelly Manne & Russ Freeman" - both later combined on a 12" LP as "The Three and The Two."

I hope that helps.

Jim

[BruceH]

I'm trying to piece together a rough discography of Shelly Manne & His Men on Contemporary. So far I have:

Vol. 1: The West Coast Sound

Vol. 2: New Works

Vol. 3: ???

Vol. 4: Swinging Sounds

Vol. 5: More Swinging Sounds (doesn't really say Vol. 5 on the CD though)

Vol. 6: Concerto for Clarinet and Combo

Vol. 7: The Gambit

+ the Black Hawk and Manne-Hole sets and the "Yesterdays" live disc on Pablo.

Half of Vol. 6 ended up on the Vol. 2 CD with Sophisticated Rabbit,

Bags' Groove and My Old Flame still not available on CD as it seems.

What was Vol. 3? Was it Shelly Manne's The Three (and The Two)?

As Chuck Nessa has mentioned the transition from 10" to 12" LPs caused some confusion, especially with the Lighthouse All Stars LPs where Volume One was actually on the Lighthouse label originally, as a 12" LP. Then the first Lighthouse LP on the Contemporary label was a 10" LP, C-2501, and labelled Volume 2.

Volume One of Shelly Manne and His Men was C-2503. Volume Two was C-2511. Volume Three was C-2516. All of these were 10" LPs. Volume Three is not with Shelly Manne and His Men, it is with Shorty Rogers and Jimmy Giuffre. The fourth 10" LP with Shelly was C-2518 and simply labelled "Shelly Manne & Russ Freeman" - both later combined on a 12" LP as "The Three and The Two."

I hope that helps.

Jim

Ooh, good----I've got The Three and The Two.

[Kyo]

Volume Three is not with Shelly Manne and His Men, it is with Shorty Rogers and Jimmy Giuffre.

Thanks. So I was right about that after all? Interesting...

The fourth 10" LP with Shelly was C-2518 and simply labelled "Shelly Manne & Russ Freeman" - both later combined on a 12" LP as "The Three and The Two."

That again is a bit odd, since at least on my CD copy of "Swinging Sounds" it clearly says "Vol. 4".

Maybe that wasn't anywhere to be seen on the LP? It's not part of the cover artwork at least.

Edited January 30, 2008 by Kyo

[JamesAHarrod]

Volume Three is not with Shelly Manne and His Men, it is with Shorty Rogers and Jimmy Giuffre.

Thanks. So I was right about that after all? Interesting...

The fourth 10" LP with Shelly was C-2518 and simply labelled "Shelly Manne & Russ Freeman" - both later combined on a 12" LP as "The Three and The Two."

That again is a bit odd, since at least on my CD copy of "Swinging Sounds" it clearly says "Vol. 4".

Maybe that wasn't anywhere to be seen on the LP? It's not part of the cover artwork at least.

Once again you are confusing 10" LP issues with later 12" LP issues on vinyl. Email me off line at jaharrod@uci.edu if you need additional clarification.

Jim

[Kyo]

I am not confusing anything. The questions remain: Was there no 12" LP called Vol. 3 or is the

Three/Two material considered part of the series even if it wasn't recorded by "His Men"? And

if those original 10" Three/Two records really count as part of this series (does it say Vol. 3 and

Vol. 4 anywhere on those?), why did they continue with a 12" LP called Vol. 4 and not simply Vol. 5?

The only way this all makes sense is that they completely ignored the old numbering of the 10" LPs

and that "The Three and The Two" was indeed considered as Vol. 3 of the series. Like this:

First EPs:

Vol. 1: CEP 4001 - Shelly Manne & His Men Vol. 1 (April 6, 1953)

Vol. 2: CEP 4007 - Shelly Manne & His Men Vol. 2 (July 20, 1953)

10" LPs:

Vol. 1: C-2503 - Shelly Manne & His Men Vol. 1 (combines CEP 4001 and CEP 4007)

Vol. 2: C-2511 - Shelly Manne & His Men Vol. 2 - New Works (3 tracks each from December 18th 1953 and May 17th 1954)

Vol. 3 (?): C-2516 - "The Three" with Shorty Rogers and Jimmy Giuffre

Vol. 4 (?): C-2518 - "The Two" with Russ Freeman

12" LPs:

Vol. 1: C-3507 - Shelly Manne & His Men Vol. 1: The West Coast Sound (C-2503 plus 4 new tracks from September 1955)

Vol. 2: no 12" reissue?

Vol. 3 (?): M-3584 The Three and The Two (combines C-2516 and C-2518)

Vol. 4: C-3516 Swinging Sounds

Vol. 5: C-3519 More Swinging Sounds

Vol. 6: C-3536 Concerto for Clarinet and Combo

Vol. 7: C-3557 The Gambit

CD releases:

Vol. 1: The West Coast Sound (same as C-3507)

Vol. 2: New Works (combines C2511 and the Concerto from C-3536)

Vol. 3 (?): The Three and The Two (same as M 3584)

Vol. 4: Swinging Sounds (same as C-3516)

Vol. 5: More Swinging Sounds (same as C-3519)

Vol. 6: not on CD yet in its entirety, the title track is on the Vol. 2 CD

Vol. 7: The Gambit (same as C-3557)

Edited January 31, 2008 by Kyo

[EulaM]

Shelly Manne played at the Lighthouse when I first started going there, Playing there during that time period was Jimmy Guiffre Shorty Rodgers, and Howard Rumsey. I can't recall who was on piano at that time, perhaps Marty Paitch.

He was also playing with Sonny Rollins when he came out with his Way Out West Album.

Usually Sonny and Max Roach were together, but he and Shelly played a lot together as well. I don't have it, so he may not be the same drummer, but I believe Sonny recorded it with Shelly at a studio and didn't just play it with Shelly for that day. I saw them introduce it live at the Lighthouse, Sonny in his super nice cowboy gear, hat and all, and I have to say, he looked terrific. That was a super fun day.

Edited January 31, 2008 by EulaM

[EulaM]

Volume Three is not with Shelly Manne and His Men, it is with Shorty Rogers and Jimmy Giuffre.

Thanks. So I was right about that after all? Interesting...

The fourth 10" LP with Shelly was C-2518 and simply labelled "Shelly Manne & Russ Freeman" - both later combined on a 12" LP as "The Three and The Two."

That again is a bit odd, since at least on my CD copy of "Swinging Sounds" it clearly says "Vol. 4".

Maybe that wasn't anywhere to be seen on the LP? It's not part of the cover artwork at least.

Not always so unusual, as the thing is, there were lots of sit ins and recording dates that lots of jazz men recorded under other labels than the one they were obligated to contractually, especially in clubs with their own recording systems. The Lighthouse had theirs and recordings were made when I was there that were never released, recordings which I would give anything to have.

[Big Beat Steve]

Playing there during that time period was Jimmy Guiffre Shorty Rodgers, and Howard Rumsey. I can't recall who was on piano at that time, perhaps Marty Paitch.

Russ Freeman? Frank Patchen?

Just a guess...