the death of high fidelity

[Teasing the Korean]

... I have some symphonic classical CDs that are virtually unlistenable for the opposite reason that is being discussed here: either the soft parts are inaudible or the load parts rattle the walls...

This is a real pet peeve of mine.

[RDK]

Pianissimo passages in a classical piece should be pretty far away from the tutti with a lot of ground in between!

It is a bit ironic that the digital revolution was initially about expanding dynamic range. Some of the earlier attemtps to do this went too far, just like they went overboard in channel separation when stereo first appeared. I have some symphonic classical CDs that are virtually unlistenable for the opposite reason that is being discussed here: either the soft parts are inaudible or the load parts rattle the walls.

Clearly, it is not compression that is an evil in and of itself. It just needs to be used properly.

Exactly. Virtually all recordings are compressed in some way during the recording process, especially rock and pop. But there's a big difference between that and the squashing of dynamics for boom box and ipod play.

[captainwrong]

I was talking about this subject with my friend who admittedly is NOT a music fan a few weeks ago. He thinks that it's good that the eventual discontinuing of CD's is a good think because everyone downloads. I basically said no way because most MP3 files suffer from horrible compression artifacts and music lovers aren't into that. He basically said "maybe for you but MP3's are fine" he likes some classical pieces, I said that MP3's of classical is bad b/c it crushes dynamic range, he then said "I only listen to the melody". So people who aren't into good sound thibk we're crazy, it's sad. I have a modest system (upgraded to an Onkyo amp) but something like Pat Metheny's "The Way Up" sounded far better on my ok Technics speakers than the Bose system at Circuit City they were demoing the album on recently. It was "Part 3" and there was so much mid range and bass that the guitars, cymbals and keyboards could not be heard and so much distortion as well. Circuit City is full of clowns that suck in unsuspecting buyers, I started talking about how bad the album sounded on their system and they had no idea what I was talking about, no surprise there.

OK, hang on a sec. Unless I'm misreading something here, I'm seeing a misconception coming up here that I see often. That being that there is some sort of dynamic compression in the mp3 encoding process. There isn't. mp3 is a data compression codec. All it's doing is removing bits of data, not performing any kind of dynamic range compression. If the source material is compressed to hell, then the mp3 will reflect that, but the process doesn't add that.

If that wasn't what you were saying, my apologies. It's just one of those things I see mentioned so often because I don't think people understand the difference between data compression and dynamic compression.

PS- there's a phrase I've heard often: no highs, no lows, must be Bose. Not to start a flamewar, but I've yet to hear a Bose product that couldn't be bettered by a much cheaper product.

[T.D.]

...

PS- there's a phrase I've heard often: no highs, no lows, must be Bose. Not to start a flamewar, but I've yet to hear a Bose product that couldn't be bettered by a much cheaper product.

Well, the markup on Bose product is huge...there are anecdotes about Bose engineers bragging about the low cost of the paper drivers, etc. used in the speakers. Years ago, I investigated and found that it's possible to buy speakers that use the same multidirectional principles as Bose, but sound much better, for less than half the price...Still, you can't deny that Bose has a massive following, and is (OK, mysteriously to me) exceptionally popular. My theory is that they're incredibly skillful at advertising/promotion.

[porcy62]

...

PS- there's a phrase I've heard often: no highs, no lows, must be Bose. Not to start a flamewar, but I've yet to hear a Bose product that couldn't be bettered by a much cheaper product.

Well, the markup on Bose product is huge...there are anecdotes about Bose engineers bragging about the low cost of the paper drivers, etc. used in the speakers. Years ago, I investigated and found that it's possible to buy speakers that use the same multidirectional principles as Bose, but sound much better, for less than half the price...Still, you can't deny that Bose has a massive following, and is (OK, mysteriously to me) exceptionally popular. My theory is that they're incredibly skillful at advertising/promotion.

Exactly. And we could probably say the same for the latest McIntosh products. I have a friends who's an engineer that works in CE certifications for electronics. He told me that he received the latest entry lavel Mcintosh cd player along with a Denon and another cheap brand I don't recall it now. He opened them and inside basically they are exactly the same: same converters, same cd mechanics, same circuit topology, same PCB, even most of the discrete components are exactly the same...but the McIntosh costed six times more. I never hear it playing, but...man, this is big electronic consumer marketing. You're selling a Brand.

[sidewinder]

I have a friends who's an engineer that works in CE certifications for electronics.

Now there's a growth industry. You'll always have a job doing that !

[Guest Bill Barton]

... I have some symphonic classical CDs that are virtually unlistenable for the opposite reason that is being discussed here: either the soft parts are inaudible or the load parts rattle the walls...

This is a real pet peeve of mine.

Pianissimo passages in a classical piece should be pretty far away from the tutti with a lot of ground in between!

It is a bit ironic that the digital revolution was initially about expanding dynamic range. Some of the earlier attemtps to do this went too far, just like they went overboard in channel separation when stereo first appeared. I have some symphonic classical CDs that are virtually unlistenable for the opposite reason that is being discussed here: either the soft parts are inaudible or the load parts rattle the walls.

Clearly, it is not compression that is an evil in and of itself. It just needs to be used properly.

Exactly. Virtually all recordings are compressed in some way during the recording process, especially rock and pop. But there's a big difference between that and the squashing of dynamics for boom box and ipod play.

Interesting... Yes, indeed compression is not evil in and of itself. And complete lack of it can be just as irritating on occasion as the squashing of dynamics is (i.e. the "minimalist" recording techniques utilized by CIMP.)

[porcy62]

Yes, indeed compression is not evil in and of itself. And complete lack of it can be just as irritating on occasion as the squashing of dynamics is (i.e. the "minimalist" recording techniques utilized by CIMP.)

Did you say compression or complexion?

I definitely agree about complexion.

[Guest Bill Barton]

That dude's definitely been spending way too much time in a darkened recording studio.

[porcy62]

That dude's definitely been spending way too much time in a darkened recording studio.

Not my fault, those damn rockstars loves recording in the night. I'd like to look at you after three albums of Marilyn Manson.

I'll still remember when my dad brought me at fly fishing.

Edited January 25, 2008 by porcy62

[Enterprise Server]

I'd like to look at you after three albums of Marilyn Manson.

Better you than me..........

[Chalupa]

Not really sure where to put this but I figured this thread was a good spot.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1718581,00.html

[Stefan Wood]

Not really sure where to put this but I figured this thread was a good spot.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1718581,00.html

McIntosh products are VERY overrated. I once had an audiophile buddy who lent me some of their classic tube amplifiers, just for comparison to some other amps I had heard. They are not as dynamic or natural sounding; though they look pretty. My HH Scott kicks their butt for sound quality. Even the Decware amps sound better.

[John L]

I was talking about this subject with my friend who admittedly is NOT a music fan a few weeks ago. He thinks that it's good that the eventual discontinuing of CD's is a good think because everyone downloads. I basically said no way because most MP3 files suffer from horrible compression artifacts and music lovers aren't into that. He basically said "maybe for you but MP3's are fine" he likes some classical pieces, I said that MP3's of classical is bad b/c it crushes dynamic range, he then said "I only listen to the melody". So people who aren't into good sound thibk we're crazy, it's sad. I have a modest system (upgraded to an Onkyo amp) but something like Pat Metheny's "The Way Up" sounded far better on my ok Technics speakers than the Bose system at Circuit City they were demoing the album on recently. It was "Part 3" and there was so much mid range and bass that the guitars, cymbals and keyboards could not be heard and so much distortion as well. Circuit City is full of clowns that suck in unsuspecting buyers, I started talking about how bad the album sounded on their system and they had no idea what I was talking about, no surprise there.

OK, hang on a sec. Unless I'm misreading something here, I'm seeing a misconception coming up here that I see often. That being that there is some sort of dynamic compression in the mp3 encoding process. There isn't. mp3 is a data compression codec. All it's doing is removing bits of data, not performing any kind of dynamic range compression. If the source material is compressed to hell, then the mp3 will reflect that, but the process doesn't add that.

If that wasn't what you were saying, my apologies. It's just one of those things I see mentioned so often because I don't think people understand the difference between data compression and dynamic compression.

PS- there's a phrase I've heard often: no highs, no lows, must be Bose. Not to start a flamewar, but I've yet to hear a Bose product that couldn't be bettered by a much cheaper product.

Thank you. That is indeed a common misperception. The confusion is understandable. There are complaints about sound quality due to compression. There are complaints about sound quality due to losses in going from WAVE to MP3s. Then people link the two in their heads, which is indeed wrong.

[porcy62]

Not really sure where to put this but I figured this thread was a good spot.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1718581,00.html

McIntosh products are VERY overrated. I once had an audiophile buddy who lent me some of their classic tube amplifiers, just for comparison to some other amps I had heard. They are not as dynamic or natural sounding; though they look pretty. My HH Scott kicks their butt for sound quality. Even the Decware amps sound better.

Totally agree, you could find hundred of better sounding amp/preamp on used market and at cheaper prices. Never understood the worshipping of McIntosh products, maybe they were "the best money could afford" back in the sixties, (though back then Quad and Marantz were pretty good too) but now

[AllenLowe]

well, there's compression and there's compression - there's the kind that occurs naturally in tube amplification, and when used in high fidelity playback it arrives as a very warm-sounding and dynamically pleasing effect - however I hate it in my own recordings - through something like 7 CDS I have recorded groups of my own that were dynamically varied and never used compression - just gotta pay attention to peaks and valleys; also gotta know how to use multi-tracking in a natural and room-friendly way - though theoretically compression serves the purpose of allowing the music to "breathe" I think this can be accomplished more naturally and in more sonically pleasing ways -

that said, I just remembered; David Baker recorded us "live" at the Knitting Factory way back when, and he DID use some compression - but David was a brilliant engineer and really knew how to do it - it was quite transparent -

Edited March 12, 2008 by AllenLowe