mikeweil Posted September 28, 2003 Report Posted September 28, 2003 After an intensive listening session with this disc let me say: Do not expect a sequel to Infinite Search! And do not expect a quintet record! Basically it is a trio with Garbarek, Vitous and DeJohnette. Corea and McLaughlin appear on two tracks each, one of these is the only quintet track - with the three brass players added, who otherwise appear on the other McLaughlin track and one of the trios. And there is a duo of Vitous of McLaughlin. I didn't expect the youthful energy of Vitous' debut record, but a little more taking chances than is heard here. Garbarek is the winner here to my ears because he goes the farthest oustide. The trios are the most convincing. The brass leaves a feeling of having either more of them - they seem to have been intregrated in the live recording process - or do away with them - they do not play written parts it seems, but have some room for improvisation as well, and if so, there is not enogh of them. Two things I do not like at all: - DeJohnette's ride cymbal sound - it keeps bugging me because it has not very much color, but that's his taste in cymbals. This is the first time I could really hear the Vernel Fournier influence in his playing. - Corea: I think he is superfluous on this disc. Some phrases are played as if he wants to demonstrate he can far as far out of time as possible, almost like a classical pianist trying to play a romantic rubato passage to prove he is free from earthly connections. He sounds as if he is still looking for his real place in this music. McLaughlin too, but he takes off from his stylistics of the Infinite Search sessions and interacts more with Garbarek. Corea somewhat sounds to me as if he is searching for a place in the music where to strike a chord. There should have been more work together as a quintet to make that really convincing - music of this order does not happen with only a day or two in the studio. I'll keep this disc, but it shows you shouldn't change your mind in the middle of recording - this sounds more like a first step on a promising path, or rather two paths: either the trio of Vitous, Garbarek and DeJohnette, or an interactive group with some orchestral players involved - McLaughlin would fit here better than Corea, I think. I'm very curious about other opinions on this record! Quote
skeith Posted September 30, 2003 Report Posted September 30, 2003 Just got this one and have listened to it twice. I agree with much of what Mikeweil has said, Garbarek is great, McLauglin and Corea are not on a number of tracks so it often feels like a trio record except for the tunes with the horn section. I should say that I love Infinite Search, but was not expecting this to be like that record. Bottom line so far is that the new one has some nice moments, but I don't love it, at least not yet. It may grow on me. One other disagreement with mikeweil is that I do think they take some chances here in that not many of the tunes have a discernible head (in the sense of a main melody). There is no avant-garde playing but the compositions seem to me to be very free from melodic cliches. Quote
Seven Over Eight Posted September 30, 2003 Report Posted September 30, 2003 (edited) One more brief tangent- anyone ever notice that the McLaughlin recording "The Promise" has one of those "magic eye" optical illusions on the front cover? the hidden image is this: "You've Got It!" Always the man of inspiration, that McLaughlin. Listened to the Remember Shakti CD myself recently, and my concurring thoughts on "The Wish". B) Edited September 30, 2003 by 57911 Quote
mikeweil Posted October 1, 2003 Report Posted October 1, 2003 I should say that I love Infinite Search, but was not expecting this to be like that record. One other disagreement with mikeweil is that I do think they take some chances here in that not many of the tunes have a discernible head (in the sense of a main melody). There is no avant-garde playing but the compositions seem to me to be very free from melodic cliches. You may be right, but Vitous has a reputation to know exactly where he wants to go, which would explain the rather cautious playing of his sidemen. When I said "taking chances" I rather should used the expression "cut loose" or similar - I hoped for a little more fireworks and exitement. This might have happened because Vitous changed his mind in the middle of recording. Of course I didn't expext another Infinite Search either, but a little more energy! What you say about melodic cliches is absolutely right and probably the most memorable aspect of that CD. Quote
skeith Posted October 1, 2003 Report Posted October 1, 2003 Now I understand what you mean by taking chances and I agree, none of the solos get "hot" so to speak. But I very much associate this with the ECM sound, it is a laid back, more of a quiet fire kind of record. Quote
pepe Posted October 2, 2003 Report Posted October 2, 2003 I've been told the complete group never was in studio together. So - I guess it's difficult to get "hot" sitting by yourself with headphones creating a solo over the music you hear. Quote
mikeweil Posted October 3, 2003 Report Posted October 3, 2003 This would confrim my impression that Mclaughlin and Corea sound somewhat like they are still looking for their place in the music, and Corea does not really sound connected to the rhythm beneath him. Seems like a lost chance, under these circumstances a trio record with Vitous, Garbarek and DeJohnette would have yielded music of greater potential - once they cut loose ... Quote
A Lark Ascending Posted October 5, 2003 Report Posted October 5, 2003 And so to my favourite theme...how we all have very different ears and should be careful trying to 'nail' recordings or performers into their place in an imagined hierarchy (I'm not saying anyone here is doing that, far from it!). Here is a 5 star review in Friday's Guardian by John Fordham, arguably one of the UKs most informed and well balanced critics: http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/fridayrevie...1054185,00.html I still havn't heard this. I scoursed Nottingham for it on Saturday but there was not a sign of it. Maybe its release date has changed in the UK. Or the name appeared too obscure to be stocked! Quote
sidewinder Posted October 5, 2003 Report Posted October 5, 2003 I noticed Fordham's review too. Very complementary, not too many of his reviews get the 5 stars. The latest copy of 'Jazzwise' also has a feature on Vitous and a positive writeup of the album. Interesting info also on Vitous' early years listening to Willis Connover on the radio in Prague (jamming didn't work ) and his move to the US, with early approaches by Herbie Mann, Miles and Zawinul. Interesting read ! Quote
Shrdlu Posted October 5, 2003 Report Posted October 5, 2003 I think you guys have just saved me $16, or whatever this CD costs. Quote
mikeweil Posted October 5, 2003 Report Posted October 5, 2003 If anyone got a negative impression of this disc from my posts, please take the time and give it a listen and decide for yourselves. Vitous is one of my favourite bassists, I guess I just expected some more fireworks from this disc. It's great to hear Garbarek's take on the blues - I like him more on this disc than ever before. I once hit random play, and it worked wonders, started with the duo track, and then all the trios, the quartets and quintet last - that sounds better to me. I would have preferred Hancock over Corea. Quote
A Lark Ascending Posted October 6, 2003 Report Posted October 6, 2003 I'd have liked Keith Tippett! Then we'd be talking about moving away from the comfort zone. Quote
Green Dolphin Posted October 11, 2003 Report Posted October 11, 2003 Still waiting for this one to arrive,but then I've been waiting since I heard rumours about it a year ago,so what's a few more days.Vitous was the last player to get Garbarek swinging on "Star" from 91-if he does get this band on the road I hope ECM tape it,I'd imagine given some more room in the live setting,sparks could genuinely fly.That was certainly the case when I saw the Star trio live. Quote
Guy Berger Posted October 11, 2003 Report Posted October 11, 2003 There's an interview with Vitous in this months Jazzwise. I wasn't all that aware of his history (despite knowing quite a few of his records) and it made interesting reading. Here is another interview. What an arrogant bastard. Guy Quote
Green Dolphin Posted October 11, 2003 Report Posted October 11, 2003 What an arrogant bastard. Guy Yeah certainly not one to hide his light under a bushel.I wonder how long him and Zawinul were seeing "eye to eye" for! Quote
Green Dolphin Posted October 14, 2003 Report Posted October 14, 2003 It's finally arrived and I think Mike hit the nail on the head earlier.Some months ago I heard that none of them were actually in the studio at the same time,obvious with Mclaughlin and Corea,neither of whom really get involved,less so with Garbarek and Dejohnette.It was tantalising to hear Jan with a piano again on Sunflower,wishing it was going to break into one of those Jarrett Belonging moments,then it all loosens up,Corea noodles away and they "jam" their way back to the start again .Definitely one to persevere with but at times it sounds like everyone's (infinitely)searching for a place in the music,and if,indeed,it was recorded separately,I wonder why the fact hasn't been advertised or mentioned by Vitous.Perhaps it doesn't exactly fit with the label's ethos. Quote
Jazzmoose Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 Just got this today, so I thought I'd boost the thread. Not my typical kind of music, and if I'd read this thread before buying, I probably would have passed on it. But as it turns out, I like it a lot! You never know... Quote
mikeweil Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 I wonder why the fact hasn't been advertised or mentioned by Vitous. Perhaps it doesn't exactly fit with the label's ethos. They (or more probably Vitous) were changing their mind somewhere during the recording process, and perhaps had to meet a deadline ... And one certainly would not expect overdubs from these musicians in this combination! I'm sure they would have had a ball playing live together in a studio! Quote
king ubu Posted December 5, 2003 Report Posted December 5, 2003 Just got the disc yesterday, listened to it while doing some work yesterday night. It hits me as an excellent album, all in all. Both observations of Mike (Corea/McLaughlin and cymbal sound of DeJohnette) are quite true to these ears, too, however this does not make the record much worse. And DeJohnette plays very well! Garbarek IS the winner, I think, surpassing his lastly usual playing, and yes, taking chances. I remember having read the session was done in different locations (look at the credits, they're quite strange, giving two studios, no recording dates, but only a date when the mix was done. It is hard to imagine this being true, at least in regard to the core trio! They seem very tight! Vitous & DeJohnette MUST have been in the studio together at the same time, no? ubu Quote
mikeweil Posted December 22, 2003 Report Posted December 22, 2003 (edited) Vitous & DeJohnette MUST have been in the studio together at the same time, no? You may be right. Still sounds like a missed opportunity to me. My choice for most disappointing release in 2003. Edited December 22, 2003 by mikeweil Quote
GregK Posted December 22, 2003 Report Posted December 22, 2003 I think this is one of the very best records of the year, by any stretch. I have listened to it consistently since I bought it. The trio pieces are fascinating, and that "ECM" sound suits the dynamics of the trio perfectly. Excellent release Quote
Jazzmoose Posted December 22, 2003 Report Posted December 22, 2003 I agree, Greg. On the other hand, it sounds like for Mike it was more the failure to meet his expectations rather than the recording itself. Perhaps my expectations were different... Quote
GregK Posted December 23, 2003 Report Posted December 23, 2003 I agree, Greg. On the other hand, it sounds like for Mike it was more the failure to meet his expectations rather than the recording itself. Perhaps my expectations were different... Yeah, it has a lot to do with perspective. I had little to no expectations because I have never heard any of Vitous' previous releases, so I heard it with a completely open mind. Now I am trying to figure out what I should listen to next.... Quote
mikeweil Posted December 23, 2003 Report Posted December 23, 2003 I guess that really makes a very bif difference. I know much of Vitous' work and, most importantly, his Infinite Search debut album to which it refers, and that one WAS fireworks. Check it out if you can! Quote
king ubu Posted December 23, 2003 Report Posted December 23, 2003 I actually had NO expectations - not being old enough to know seventies jazz, and until now having concentrated on fifties and sixties and some contemporary stuff, I did not know much of Vitous before - I knew his reputation and all that, but I think the only record I have with him is Star, that ECM trio disc with Garbarek & Erskine. A good one, but not one of my favorites. So with my non-existing expectations this disc really struck me as a very very good one! By the way, Mike, did you see the rave review it got in the FAZ? ubu Quote
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