"MODERN" records from Los Angeles is more important than you

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

the title of this posting is called Modern Records from Los Angeles is more important than you think, because Modern Records is amazing. I mean BLUE NOTE level amazing::

1st of all is music selection- you can find a wide range of styles from slow blues piano silky stylings of Hadda Brooks Trio, to the uppiitiest of uppitty "up" jump-blues pieces......

......then there BB KING himeself, recording on "RPM" modern subisdiary label

***NOW WHAT I REALLY NEED TO TALK ABOUT IS JULES BIHARI & IKE TURNER'S TRAVELS AND FIELD RECORDINGS IN THE SOUTHERN US*** they made a number of trips together, during ikes time as a&r man for modern!

the other cool thing about MODERN stuff is THAT **MODERN LOVES REISSUES** MODERN CREATOR BIHARI STARTED --CROWN-- AND REISSUED MANY CLASSICS 78s ON LP (so there were not good liner notes, at least the music was there!!)

YOU KNOW YOU GUYS, IVE TALKED ABOUT --CROWN-- FOR A WHILE O HERE, BUT NEVER, NOT ONCE, HAS ANYONE EVER REALLY ANSWERED 1 OF MY Q's OR TOLD ME ANYTHING INTERESTING ABOUT THEIR CROWN and other MODERN expiereinces, besides (oh the vinyl is such bad quality, etc )

SO FINALLY LETS HAVE A FRANK, SERIOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT IT

ANOTHER GOOD THING IS HOW BIHARI REVIVED THE MODERN LABEL FOR THE LATE 60s/EARLY 70s and released the FINEST SOUL MUSIC THIS SIDE OF DETROIT.....IT IS BY FAR A HIGHLGHT (one of many) for the label

i have always wanted to see the Auto-Car-Glass-Refinnishing Auto repair garage that was MODERN/CROWN headquarters for so long, but never have made it--- maybe one of you LA guys can visit someday! NOrmandie ave? i think its by hollywood

[Big Beat Steve]

Yes - the MODERN/RRM label issued a lot of important and timeless R&B music (and some other styles such as jazz and even some Country as well) and are a key label of the 50s but if you want to discuss the label beyond the music you will soon find the Biharis were about as liked and appreciated as Herman Lubinsky of Savoy. In short, I am sure many, many artists felt very much exploited by them - down to the way they usurped writer's credits on most of the original material the R&B artists wrote. All the Josea, Taub and Ling names you find in songwriters credits are cover-ups for the Bihari brothers and the share of royalties they took for themselves.

To collectors the label must be a nightmare, especially the CROWN reissues. Just have a look at the way they rehashed previously issued music on their budget LP's, slapping new fake titles to the tracks and thus confusing record collectors forever. Or not even giving proper credits at all, as on those Jazz compilations (e.g. "Jazz Surprise").

I think the only serious source for the timeless music are the reissues that the ACE label from the UK has been doing for a very, very long time. I think they bought the rights to all the masters outright so for once some sensible reissue programming from the Modern/RPM vaults is occurring there (right down to excellent liner notes).

Edited January 15, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[John L]

***NOW WHAT I REALLY NEED TO TALK ABOUT IS JULES BIHARI & IKE TURNER'S TRAVELS AND FIELD RECORDINGS IN THE SOUTHERN US*** they made a number of trips together, during ikes time as a&r man for modern!

A very large share of that music has been reissued recently in this form:

VERY raw but deep blues from the South during the peak blues years in America: this comes from DEEP in the juke joints. I absolutely love it!

I have never doubted that Modern Records is more important than me.

Edited January 15, 2008 by John L

[Big Beat Steve]

A very large share of that music has been reissued recently in this form:

Like I said: ACE Records rule!

Though this Downhome stuff rather atypical of the Modern label releases.

[John L]

Bihari and Turner also recorded Howlin' Wolf: some of the fiercest blues ever put on wax, with highly distorted jazzy guitar from Willie Johnson.

[Stereojack]

Bihari and Turner also recorded Howlin' Wolf: some of the fiercest blues ever put on wax, with highly distorted jazzy guitar from Willie Johnson.

Actually, these sides were recorded in Memphis by Sam Phillips, who sold the masters to the Biharis.

[John L]

Bihari and Turner also recorded Howlin' Wolf: some of the fiercest blues ever put on wax, with highly distorted jazzy guitar from Willie Johnson.

Actually, these sides were recorded in Memphis by Sam Phillips, who sold the masters to the Biharis.

No. Only a handful of tracks here were recorded by Phillips. After Phillips sold Moanin' at Midnight/How Many More Years to Chess, the Biharis broke relations with Sun and began legal action. They thought that they had an exclusive deal with Phillips regarding Wolf. Jules Bihari then traveled to Memphis himself, hired Ike Turner, and recorded Howlin' Wolf on his own (with Ike Turner on piano). The majority of the music here is from these sessions.

It is interesting how the law suit was settled. Bihari agreed to give Howlin' Wolf to Chess if he could get exclusive rights to Rosco Gordon. No too fair a trade, I would say. In retrospect, it worked out well. Gordon's style was better served by Modern, and Wolf thrived with Chess in Chicago.

Edited January 15, 2008 by John L

[AllenLowe]

the downhome series is essential! love the sound of that stuff - as I play guitar, that's the sound I hear in my head - too many contemporary guitarists want to sound like the old school, but lack the nerve to really allow so little mediation between themselves, the guitar, and the amp -

[DukeCity]

OK, my interest the "Down Home Blues" stuff is piqued enough to seek some of it out. Looking forward to checking it out.

But:

the title of this posting is called Modern Records from Los Angeles is more important than you think, because Modern Records is amazing. I mean BLUE NOTE level amazing::

I gotta say I think the title, as it showed up on the list, is a much more attention-grabbing headline.

[Dan Gould]

I have not tried those "Down Home" comps but the title of this Ace release certainly goes with what Aric is talking about:

The Traveling Record Man

Here's another name in the MODERN whose recordings we should be grateful for: LOWELL FULSON.

Heck, since he recorded in LA and sent the masters to Chicago, and Maxwell Davis did alot of the arranging, those Chess recordings are practically MODERN recordings anyway. But as great as the Chess stuff is, the Bihari recordings in the 60s are every bit as essential, imo.

[paul secor]

I have not tried those "Down Home" comps but the title of this Ace release certainly goes with what Aric is talking about:

The Traveling Record Man

Here's another name in the MODERN whose recordings we should be grateful for: LOWELL FULSON.

Heck, since he recorded in LA and sent the masters to Chicago, and Maxwell Davis did alot of the arranging, those Chess recordings are practically MODERN recordings anyway. But as great as the Chess stuff is, the Bihari recordings in the 60s are every bit as essential, imo.

Dan, you're correct that Lowell Fulson recorded much of his Chess material in L.A., but about 1/3 of it was recorded in Chicago or Dallas, including the classic "Reconsider Baby", which was recorded in Dallas.

[Dan Gould]

You're right of course, I was too lazy to make sure - but most of those recordings did sound more like an LA Modern/RPM record than a Chess!

[paul secor]

You're right of course, I was too lazy to make sure - but most of those recordings did sound more like an LA Modern/RPM record than a Chess!

You're right about the LA sound. Even though he recorded in other places, and used Willie Dixon and Freddie Below on at least one Chicage session, and Fathead Newman in Dallas (I'm assuming the discographies are correct about that), he did also use members of his own band, including Lloyd Glenn. And Lowell Fulson was a West Coast guy.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

There's some Eddie Chamblee in those Checker Fulson sides - I think recorded at the time Chamblee was working on the coast - he recorded with Amos Milburn at around the same time I think (can't be asked to do proper research here and now).

One way or another I've quite a bit of Modern/RPM/Kent/Crown stuff (including one original Crown that wasn't a reissue). Two things that are great favorites with me are

(I haven't got this CD - I have the 10" LP that Ace issued in about 1981.)

MG

[flat5]

Chewy, only thing I can say about Crown Records is I bought many in the early 1960s

and really enjoyed them. They cost 88 cents each! I played them a lot and played along with them sometimes. It was fun to try to figure out who was playing.

Mostly I could.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

did you buy them at supermarkets, or actual record stores?

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

you guys are off on this blues tangent, thats good-- but what about Teddy Edwards/Howard McGhee Band doing "Groovin' High Pts 1&2'?

or the more R&B oriented stuff

and what about late 60s early 70s modern records SOUL!!!!! oh man i just got vol 2 of "For conniseurs (sic) only" wow

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

WHY WASNT MODERN BOUGHT UP BY A LARGER CONGLOMARATE THAN 'ACE'-- IN THE UK.....HOW DID THAT WHOLE THING GO DOWN? A LOT OF SMALLER LABELS ARE NONETHELESS OWNED BY LIKE, SONY, YOU KNOW? BUT NOT MODERN!

[Big Beat Steve]

Good heavens, don't touch on that! Thank goodness the Modern masters were bought by a collector label that knew what they were doing and had the diehard collectors in mind and not by some big company white-collar exec dimwits who'd reissue the big "name artist" sellers over and over again but let the rest gather dust in the basement. I'd dread the thought of seeing the umpteenth B.B. King reissue of his Modern masters but missing all those rarities, especially in the R&B and Jump Blues field.

The sad part of it is, though, that as those records are largely in the public domain now it is inevitable that even a collector label like Ace will be ripped off by P.D. labels (even labels touted on this very site as such great achievements and benefits to the collectors) hopping on the bandwagon and cashing in on previously compiled stuff. Hope this won't slow down Ace's activities too much.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Despite what Steve says - and I agree with him - this is an interesting question. Modern seems to have followed a similar route to Specialty, which also remained open long after its record-making period was over (in Specialty's case until the early nineties). Art Rupe, the owner of Specialty, found other things to do, but never closed down - I believe that, into the eighties, Rupe would press new 45s (by hand, I seem to remember someone saying) if you sent an order for 500 copies. Organisations like Collectables (a big mail order retailer before it was a CD reissue company) could do things like that. As far as Modern was concerned, I think that, like Rupe, the Biharis knew what they had. They knew there was a reissue market - hence the Crown label. But those were really shitty pressings. Their later reissue label - United - had rather better pressings (but still not that good).

Savoy also managed to stay in business independently until Herman Lubinsky died. That was to a very large extent because, from the early sixties on, he was concentrating on Gospel records and selling shedloads of them - at one point in the late sixties I saw a US Gospel LP chart and every record on the top 10 was on Savoy. But Lubinsky, too, was able to manage reissue programmes of the Bebop material - in Britain on the cheapo Realm label. Not sure about the US.

What all these labels had was the ability, one way or another, to flog nasty stuff cheap.

Jazz-oriented labels like Prestige and Blue Note couldn't follow the Rupe or Biharis prescription because what they had was kind of predicated on hifi. What would have been the market reaction if all those Mobleys and Morgans and Silvers had appeared on Crown-quality pressings, eh? That limited their options.

MG

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

if mobley made a record for crown it would be greatest thing ever

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Thought you'd say something like that - that's why I tempted you...

(Now where's that Devil smiley?)

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

No so sure.

Is Jackie McLean's one shot on an R&B-oriented label (Jubilee - his "Fat Jazz" LP) more than a date that is considered "O.K., good but not overly sensational" by jazz collectors? I cannot see that this relative "obscurity" of a "famed Blue Note artist" gives it extra collector value.

Anyway, I agree with your post, MG. The Biharis had found their niche and no doubt their Kent releases and United reissues (which got me hooked onto Modern/RPM R&B in the late 70s too) allowed the label to carry on for a relatively long time.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

No so sure.

Is Jackie McLean's one shot on an R&B-oriented label (Jubilee - his "Fat Jazz" LP) more than a date that is considered "O.K., good but not overly sensational" by jazz collectors? I cannot see that this relative "obscurity" of a "famed Blue Note artist" gives it extra collector value.

I don't know about the Jackie McLean Jubilee LP, but I'm not sure you followed my reasoning there, Steve. I was arguing that, if Blue Note (and other labels) had got the Biharis to press their LPs, modern jazz buyers simply wouldn't have bought those records in the fifties and sixties, so the labels would have closed. And therefore that those companies had no option but to go down the high quality route.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

My reply was more aimed at Chewy's reaction that I understood to mean that if Blue Note artists and recordings had crept up on labels like Crown the curiosity value alone would have made them immensely desirable.

You know how it is ... great music cropping up on obscure labels, and collectors moaning today "If only he had been given decent recording and pressing facilities... what could he have achieved ... etc. etc."

Edited January 16, 2008 by Big Beat Steve