Lester Young/Count Basie Mosaic Announced!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Well, Peas An' Rice An' Coconut Oil" won't be, but Ham and Eggs, Pound Cake, and Apple Jump will be, as Pres takes solos on the latter three.

There is no conspiracy here to leave out "crap." Everything with Lester Young solos will be included without exception (as I understand).

Oh, I didn't think there was a conspiracy. The word when I was getting interested in jazz was that Basie's rep rested on about a third of the recordings the band had made. In the absence of someone actually writing out a list of what they were (and no one did that) I made the assumption that this would generally include the material that featured Prez quite prominently.

So, what you're saying is there's going to be a wide cross section of the band's work, good, bad and indifferent, in this box. Now that makes me a lot more interested in buying it.

MG

[John L]

Well, Peas An' Rice An' Coconut Oil" won't be, but Ham and Eggs, Pound Cake, and Apple Jump will be, as Pres takes solos on the latter three.

There is no conspiracy here to leave out "crap." Everything with Lester Young solos will be included without exception (as I understand).

Oh, I didn't think there was a conspiracy. The word when I was getting interested in jazz was that Basie's rep rested on about a third of the recordings the band had made. In the absence of someone actually writing out a list of what they were (and no one did that) I made the assumption that this would generally include the material that featured Prez quite prominently.

So, what you're saying is there's going to be a wide cross section of the band's work, good, bad and indifferent, in this box. Now that makes me a lot more interested in buying it.

MG

One third? It is true that Basie, like other big bands of the time, recorded a share of obligatory shallow pop numbers. Indeed, a few of them will be on the box. But I would say that the reputation of the 1930s Basie band has much more to do with the overall sound that they achieved, as opposed to some limited subset of their recordings. No big band could swing as hard and effortlessly as Basie's. The rhythm section of Jo Jones, Walter Page, Basie, and Freddie Green just can't be beat. No big band could dig as deeply in the blues as Basie's. Then you had that lineup of soloists: Lester Young, Herschal Evans, Buck Clayton. Dickie Wells, Basie himself et al, and the best singers in Jimmy Rushing and Helen Humes. The brilliance of this band is usually clearly audible even on the lesser tracks. It just don't get no better.

Edited February 10, 2008 by John L

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Well, Peas An' Rice An' Coconut Oil" won't be, but Ham and Eggs, Pound Cake, and Apple Jump will be, as Pres takes solos on the latter three.

There is no conspiracy here to leave out "crap." Everything with Lester Young solos will be included without exception (as I understand).

Oh, I didn't think there was a conspiracy. The word when I was getting interested in jazz was that Basie's rep rested on about a third of the recordings the band had made. In the absence of someone actually writing out a list of what they were (and no one did that) I made the assumption that this would generally include the material that featured Prez quite prominently.

So, what you're saying is there's going to be a wide cross section of the band's work, good, bad and indifferent, in this box. Now that makes me a lot more interested in buying it.

MG

One third? It is true that Basie, like other big bands of the time, recorded a share of obligatory shallow pop numbers. Indeed, a few of them will be on the box. But I would say that the reputation of the 1930s Basie band has much more to do with the overall sound that they achieved, as opposed to some limited subset of their recordings. No big band could swing as hard and effortlessly as Basie's. The rhythm section of Jo Jones, Walter Page, Basie, and Freddie Green just can't be beat. No big band could dig as deeply in the blues as Basie's. Then you had that lineup of soloists: Lester Young, Herschal Evans, Buck Clayton. Dickie Wells, Basie himself et al, and the best singers in Jimmy Rushing and Helen Humes. The brilliance of this band is usually clearly audible even on the lesser tracks. It just don't get no better.

Thanks John. Looks like my view have been influenced by over-critical critics. But I still want a broad sample with a bit of everything.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

One third? It is true that Basie, like other big bands of the time, recorded a share of obligatory shallow pop numbers. Indeed, a few of them will be on the box. ... The brilliance of this band is usually clearly audible even on the lesser tracks. It just don't get no better.

Which is exactly why I cannot see any reason in being selective with a band like this, especially since the entire body of Basie's work of those years IS available elsewhere. So this Mosaic looks like it's more of fidelity/mastering (and label ) than availability interest...

Among the "name" bands of the Swing era I can think of a fair share of eminently forgettable pop/corn/sweet/lachrymose duds with many bands (especially white ones, of course) but not with Basie (being a Basie fan I am biased but anyway even the pop or novelty numbers that are no true masterpieces have a lot going for them and warrant inclusion to give the overall picture).

On the other hand, what would have been highly interesting if this set is to concentrate on Prez' SOLOS with Basie is if it had included maybe a representative sampling of live recordings/transcriptions/airshots recorded during the time span covered by the studio recordings. A lot of these have been issued on LP since the 70s, and no doubt there must be more somewhere. Should be fascinating studying the differences in the solo work etc.

[John L]

On the other hand, what would have been highly interesting if this set is to concentrate on Prez' SOLOS with Basie is if it had included maybe a representative sampling of live recordings/transcriptions/airshots recorded during the time span covered by the studio recordings. A lot of these have been issued on LP since the 70s, and no doubt there must be more somewhere. Should be fascinating studying the differences in the solo work etc.

At a matter of principle, I don't think that Mosaic includes "samplings" in their box sets. They are usually the whole ball of wax under some unifying principle.

The Count Basie French Masters of Jazz series was the motherload for live Basie. Virtually all of the known live recordings up until around the Lester Leaps In session are included in the 12 volumes of this series. That includes about 50 live tracks of vintage Basie with Pres solos. Too bad Masters of Jazz went under before they could finish the series.

[Big Beat Steve]

Agreed, John, but if the Basie big band recordings of the 30s/early 40s are "reduced" to those where Prez solos it's a "sampling" again anyway if you consider the Basie studio recordings as a single entity that ought to be valued as a whole in order to be appreciated.

And besides, are the Mosaic Selects comprehensive reissues?

There is an exception to each (conceptional) rule, it seems.

[John L]

The unifying principle here would appear to be Lester Young, which is why they include the Glenn Hardman session without Basie. As I posted earlier, however, I agree that a complete Basie from this period would have been more satisfying. (But have you heard what Pres plays with Hardman? Unforgetable.)

[Big Beat Steve]

(But have you heard what Pres plays with Hardman? Unforgetable.)

I've had that on a CBS LP for a good many years (after having taped one or two of the tracks from that session from radio in c.1981/82)

Not much new under the sun ...

/Off-topic rant mode on ;)/

I realize Lester Young is the uniting factor on this Mosaic combination but in a way this still makes me feel ill at ease as this seems to be a more and more frequent policy on today's reissue market. You throw together packages where the common link is some sideman but the resulting compilations are made without any regard to the actual leader credits of the original release so you end up with more and more duplicates if you want to have the complete works of the actual leader and the music is in total disorder.

This is particularly evident in a case like this where the release of the Basie catalog as a unit of course would make perfect sense. But somebody who comes into this as a relative newcomer but yet would like to dig deeper would end up having lots and lots of duplicates if he wanted both all of Basie AND all of Lester Young's solo features (or are the Teddy Wilson/Billie Holiday tracks, to name just one highlight, in the same package?).

I can understand this policy of combining sidemen's works in the case of artists with relatively limited recorded legacies or really obscure nominal leaders but otherwise ...?

To make matters worse, the credits on the actual reissues are often particularly muddled (cf. certain Proper boxes and others frequently mentioned here) so as to throw many collectors off course and hide the fact you are not getting that much that is really new. In short, packages aimed at superficial collectors but for those who want to dig deeper things will soon get extremely annoying once they realize how many duplicates they are bound to accumulate.

/Off-topic rant mode off :D/

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Thanks Steve.

MG

[A Lark Ascending]

/Off-topic rant mode on ;)/

I realize Lester Young is the uniting factor on this Mosaic combination but in a way this still makes me feel ill at ease as this seems to be a more and more frequent policy on today's reissue market. You throw together packages where the common link is some sideman but the resulting compilations are made without any regard to the actual leader credits of the original release so you end up with more and more duplicates if you want to have the complete works of the actual leader and the music is in total disorder.

This is particularly evident in a case like this where the release of the Basie catalog as a unit of course would make perfect sense. But somebody who comes into this as a relative newcomer but yet would like to dig deeper would end up having lots and lots of duplicates if he wanted both all of Basie AND all of Lester Young's solo features (or are the Teddy Wilson/Billie Holiday tracks, to name just one highlight, in the same package?).

I can understand this policy of combining sidemen's works in the case of artists with relatively limited recorded legacies or really obscure nominal leaders but otherwise ...?

To make matters worse, the credits on the actual reissues are often particularly muddled (cf. certain Proper boxes and others frequently mentioned here) so as to throw many collectors off course and hide the fact you are not getting that much that is really new. In short, packages aimed at superficial collectors but for those who want to dig deeper things will soon get extremely annoying once they realize how many duplicates they are bound to accumulate.

/Off-topic rant mode off :D/

This is one reason why I'm really looking forward to more and more record companies putting material out via digital download (leaving all the 'quality' issues to one side) - the chance to fill in the gaps without duplication. I have 3 of the Fats Waller RCA sets, acquired just before they started to disappear. JSP have now launched a thorough series and I've recently got volume 2. The trouble is that there's a CD and a bit of material between the end of that set and where my RCAs pick up. The JSP box 3 would end up with nearly 3 discs of duplication. Fortunately JSP use e-music so I'm hoping it won't be too long before these boxes appear there.

Though some record companies are crafty with this. I was looking to download one classical recording in ten parts off an album where I don't need the couplings. Unfortunately two of the parts were 'album only' so my only option would have been to buy the whole album with the things I didn't need. Another sign of a failure of the companies to take into account what customers are seeking in this new world.

I read somewhere that Classics might be digitalising their collection - now that would work for me if things were available singly. Though I suspect I won't live long enough to see the job completed!

Edited February 11, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[John L]

(But have you heard what Pres plays with Hardman? Unforgetable.)

I've had that on a CBS LP for a good many years (after having taped one or two of the tracks from that session from radio in c.1981/82)

Not much new under the sun ...

/Off-topic rant mode on ;)/

I realize Lester Young is the uniting factor on this Mosaic combination but in a way this still makes me feel ill at ease as this seems to be a more and more frequent policy on today's reissue market. You throw together packages where the common link is some sideman but the resulting compilations are made without any regard to the actual leader credits of the original release so you end up with more and more duplicates if you want to have the complete works of the actual leader and the music is in total disorder.

This is particularly evident in a case like this where the release of the Basie catalog as a unit of course would make perfect sense. But somebody who comes into this as a relative newcomer but yet would like to dig deeper would end up having lots and lots of duplicates if he wanted both all of Basie AND all of Lester Young's solo features (or are the Teddy Wilson/Billie Holiday tracks, to name just one highlight, in the same package?).

I can understand this policy of combining sidemen's works in the case of artists with relatively limited recorded legacies or really obscure nominal leaders but otherwise ...?

To make matters worse, the credits on the actual reissues are often particularly muddled (cf. certain Proper boxes and others frequently mentioned here) so as to throw many collectors off course and hide the fact you are not getting that much that is really new. In short, packages aimed at superficial collectors but for those who want to dig deeper things will soon get extremely annoying once they realize how many duplicates they are bound to accumulate.

/Off-topic rant mode off :D/

Steve: I understand your "rant," and, as I already posted, to a degree share your disappointment that this is not a complete Basie set. On the other hand, Mosaic is not Proper or JSP. They take their task much more seriously in the pusuit of legal copyrights, discographical and other information, and their own quality remastering. You won't find Proper or JSP uncovering 13 alternate takes in the vaults. Those companies don't even have access to any vaults, and their cheap repackaging of Mosaic and other companies' primary work creates a strong disincentive to invest anything in vault research anymore.

This is not an introductory set aimed at a newcomer. For that purpose, various Decca reissues and the Columbia America's #1 Band already fit the bill very well. This set gathers together all of the tracks recorded by Columbia through 1940 other than the Billie Holiday dates that have Lester Young solos. That includes lots of alternate takes, including those newly discovered in the vaults for this set. This set is clearly aimed at the hard core like you and me. In addition to the new alternate takes, the sound quality here will most likely blow away what we now have on Classics or Masters of Jazz. Sets based on a particular soloist can also be very successful. Look at the Mosaic Bunny Berigan set (which was immediately ripped off track-for-track by JSP) or the new Chu Berry set.

Edited February 11, 2008 by John L

[Big Beat Steve]

@Bev Stapleton:

Yes, all this public domain release flood (while basically a good thing) is complicating matters if you want to keep duplicates within reasonable limits. And the lower prices of those P.D. reissues compensate matters only slightly as long as so much else from the 78 rpm era remains unreissued anyway.

It seems that only real specialist companies really seem to care about such things. The Document (blues reissue) label seems to be one. And the other day a batch of Western Swing CD's from the (U.K.) Krazy Kat label arrived here. The liner notes of one disc (1937-41 recordings by the Hi-Flyers) explicitly stated that the track selection (great music, BTW, and nothing like the leftovers from scraping the barrel) focused on recordings either rarely ever reissued or not reissued at all. And this despite the fact that the reissues they apparently were going out of their way to avoid duplicating were an early 80s Hi-Flyers LP's on the (U.S.) Texas Rose label as well as a few late 70s compilations on the Arhoolie and String labels. Long, long OOP and comparatively obscure from the start but thanks anyway, Krazy Kat, for being truly aware of what at least a sizable proportion of your (specialist) buyer group is bound to have accumulated anyway in their reord collections.

@John L:

No doubt about the quality issue. Of course the price alone prevents Mosaic from being an introductory selection, and like I said above, I realize remastering issues will be a major asset of this set for those who have the highest standards in this respect.

It is just that I am a bit puzzled by the fact that even Mosaic seems to go the route of disregarding original leader credits (of name bands, mind you) and thus making it harder for collectors to avoid gathering more and more duplicates if they are out to get the complete recorded opus.

I'd probably have invested in this one just for the alternates if it had been a complete Basie set (as I invariably approach this body of recordings from a Basie, not from a Young angle). I hope and trust it will sell well anyway.

Edited February 11, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[Cliff Englewood]

The Lester Young/Count Basie Sessions 1936-1940 (#239)

[jazzbo]

Thanks for the heads up!

[John L]

The Lester Young/Count Basie Sessions 1936-1940 (#239)

They found an alternate of "I Left My Baby." Holly shit!

Three more takes of Riff Interlude??????

Let me at it NOW!

Edited March 12, 2008 by John L

[B. Goren.]

I preordered it.

[king ubu]

Gee, I fully agree with the rants above (I posted such a rant in another thread when the news about this box first was out, or maybe it's in this thread, even?) - anyway, this shall be a marvellous set, and you know what? Prez is God, and I don't care if I have his stuff three times... I have all of the small group sessions in some form or the other (CDRs of the two Blue Moon 4CD sets, the Aladdin and Savoy 2CD sets, the Verve box, the GRP KC disc, another Definitive KC disc... the Basie America's Band #1 set), but this here will be a definite collection of the dates done for Columbia. Only one slight letdown there still is: the #1 set should in this case have omitted all the small group sides w/Prez (as far as I remember it contains almost all of Basie's Columbia small group sides, and I appreciate a lot having the 50/51 octet sides there, and in such great sound... otherwise though except for the phenomenal live sessions on discs 4 - which duplicate one of the few Basie Masters of Jazz discs I was able to find in time - there are comparatively too few of the great big band sides... as do others, I'd wish to have the full run, but then this Prez/Basie set practically rules that out, unless one takes the pirate route and just rips off Definitive or some such label... that's the one letdown that remains - it will be a terrific Prez documentation, I'm sure, but it's once more not doing justice to Basie (and Mosaic already did three fine Basie collections, too bad they didn't do that right this time, too!)

[Shawn]

It's been quite awhile since I purchased a Mosaic set...but this one I MUST OWN!

[poetrylover3]

13 unreleased Pres tracks make this set indispenseble for me.

Peace,

Blue Trane

[king ubu]

...on the other hand, the great 1944 session for Savoy with "Blue Lester" is missing...

[maskedmarvel]

Just had an email from Mosaic to say my copy of this is set to ship

[Brad]

I've got a feeling that at 5,000 copies this one may not be around terribly long.

[jazzbo]

Just had an email from Mosaic to say my copy of this is set to ship

Me Too!

[JETman]

Set #32 received yesterday!!! Also finally took the plunge and got the Prima/Manone at the same time -- set #1579. Apparently, it didn't sell that well before it timed out.

[jazzbo]

Hey "stranger." You lucky dog, living so close!

It's a shame there was so little response to the Manone/Prima. . .. . I remember pre-ordering that one when it was first offered. Nice little set!

Can't wait for my Pres set to arrive! Probably. . .Monday.