Serge Chaloff stories

[Larry Kart]

From Steve Voce (poached from the Jazz West Coast list):

Woody reportedly broke up the Second Herd when, fronting it on the bandstand

one night, he turned around and found that half the horns had fallen asleep.

Serge Chaloff used to sell drugs to the rest of the band from behind a

blanket on the band bus.

Eventually, because he was the source of the disruption, Woody fired Serge.

But, since he was not a harsh man, Woody told Serge he could stay with the

band until they reached Boston on their tour (this was Serge's home town).

One night before that the band played at a place whose name I forget. It was

something on the Charles, a local river. They played on a pier sticking out

onto the river. At the intermission Serge asked Woody to come out on the

balcony.

'Look down in the river.' Serge told Woody, 'and tell me what you see.'

'Nothing,' said Woody, 'except a lot of pieces of paper floating about.'

'That's the band's baritone book,' said Serge, who knew the book off by

heart. 'Now you can't fire me.'

He was right. Woody had to keep him another year before he could get rid of

him.

My story (by way of a white-haired fellow -- a friend of Joe Segal's -- who might have been dubbed the be-bop vampire):

Pianist Eddie Higgins is a student at a college near Chicago (either Northwestern or Notre Dame, don't recall which); the Second Herd is playing the Panther Room at the Sherman Hotel. Higgins wants to do an interview with Serge for the school newspaper, reaches Serge on the phone and is told to come by Serge's room tomorrow at 3 p.m. Higgins arrives, knocks on the door, no answer. Knocks again, louder, finds that the door is slightly ajar and pushes it open, while at the same time he thinks he smells smoke. There on the floor he sees Serge sprawled flat, completely stoned, his back resting against a plush armchair. His right arm is flung limply behind him; his right hand holds a lighted cigarette that has burned a good-sized smoldering hole in the seat of the chair. "Mr. Chaloff," says Higgins, "the chair -- it's on fire!" Serge gazes over his shoulder, takes in the scene, turns back to Higgins and says, "I'm hip."

[AllenLowe]

from what I remember from talking to guys from that generation who knew Chaloff, he was considered pretty evil - just a nasty junkie who liked to get others hooked and sell whatever he could sell to whomever would buy it - and Madame Chaloff, his mother, a noted music teacher, hated Jews; sad stuff, unfortunate, especially given his incredibly soulful playing -

[Dan Gould]

Not that its important but Eddie Higgins attended Northwestern.

[Joe G]

How strange - I swear someone told me the story about the book floating in the water; except that Stan Getz was the culprit.

[Larry Kart]

How strange - I swear someone told me the story about the book floating in the water; except that Stan Getz was the culprit.

Could be, but would Getz's tenor book be anywhere as difficult to reconstitute as the bari book? Also, the story -- which certainly may be apocryphal

-- fits Chaloff's personality much better than it does Getz's. (Stan certainly could be evil but not I think in that confrontational manner, at least not with a male figure of authority like Herman.) Finally, the story as told segues nicely into the familiar tale in which Woody pisses on the semi-zonked Serge's leg while both men are standing at a bar.

[AndrewHill]

Interesting stories. Thanks for sharing.

[bertrand]

I thought I read in the bio that Chaloff was Jewish - my memory could be playing tricks on me.

Bertrand.

[Big Beat Steve]

Talking about the evil character of Serge Chaloff mentioned above, have a look at this pic and wonder how innocent and charming an "evil" guy can look.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/I?gott...856sf=01211:@@@

Edited December 22, 2007 by Big Beat Steve

[BillF]

To turn to Serge the musician, having read that Blue Serge was a classic, I rushed out and bought it, but was very disappointed. I found it very difficult to listen to because of what I thought were intonation problems in Serge's playing. Was it that my non-musician's ear wasn't hearing things properly, or was this a deliberate stylistic thing that I would happily accept from Ornette Coleman or Archie Shepp, or did Serge's deteriorating physical state mean that he could no longer control the horn properly? Your views would be appreciated!

Edited December 22, 2007 by BillF

[woofy]

I remember reading a little anecdote in a Woody Herman bio. After the music-in-the-river incident (or possibly another Serge Chaloff incident) Woody and Serge were standing crushed up against each other in an extremely crowded bar, after a gig. Woody took this opportunity to get some "payback" by peeing on Serge's leg. Since the bar was so crowded, Serge couldn't move away, even after he realized what was happening.

As for Chaloff's tone, it had an aggressive, biting quality on some of his solo stuff, although he stayed in a bebop style.

[AllenLowe]

I love Blue Serge - Thanks for the Memory is incredible -

[Quasimado]

To turn to Serge the musician, having read that Blue Serge was a classic, I rushed out and bought it, but was very disappointed. I found it very difficult to listen to because of what I thought were intonation problems in Serge's playing. Was it that my non-musician's ear wasn't hearing things properly, or was this a deliberate stylistic thing that I would happily accept from Ornette Coleman or Archie Shepp, or did Serge's deteriorating physical state mean that he could no longer control the horn properly? Your views would be appreciated!

He's all over the horn - has complete control. Do you mean he's playing out of tune? Not to my ears, although his vibrato is wide at times... No offence, but if Ornette or (early) Archie is your standard, we may hear things differently ...

Q

[woofy]

How strange - I swear someone told me the story about the book floating in the water; except that Stan Getz was the culprit.

Could be, but would Getz's tenor book be anywhere as difficult to reconstitute as the bari book? Also, the story -- which certainly may be apocryphal

-- fits Chaloff's personality much better than it does Getz's. (Stan certainly could be evil but not I think in that confrontational manner, at least not with a male figure of authority like Herman.) Finally, the story as told segues nicely into the familiar tale in which Woody pisses on the semi-zonked Serge's leg while both men are standing at a bar.

Both stories are in Gene Lees' Herman bio "The Leader of the Band."

[jazztrain]

Larry Kart wrote:

>>>

But, since he was not a harsh man, Woody told Serge he could stay with the

band until they reached Boston on their tour (this was Serge's home town).

One night before that the band played at a place whose name I forget. It was

something on the Charles, a local river.

>>>

Most likely it was Nuttings-On-The-Charles in Waltham, Massachusetts (not far from Boston):

http://www.city.waltham.ma.us/main4.htm

[John Tapscott]

I thought I read in the bio that Chaloff was Jewish - my memory could be playing tricks on me.

Bertrand.

I too, thought Chaloff was Jewish, so maybe both our memories are playing tricks on us.

[Larry Kart]

I thought I read in the bio that Chaloff was Jewish - my memory could be playing tricks on me.

Bertrand.

I too, thought Chaloff was Jewish, so maybe both our memories are playing tricks on us.

Probably Russian, not Russian-Jewish. Also, Margaret is the name of a saint -- not that all Margarets were or are now named after the saint, but back then I believe that many Margarets were. In any case, not too many Jewish girls named Margaret, at least not of Margaret Chaloff's vintage. Also, now that I think of it, not too many Jewish boys named Serge either.

[AllenLowe]

the anti-Semitic comments were recounted by a friend of mine who studied with Madame Chaloff in the 1970s -

[Joe G]

the anti-Semitic comments were recounted by a friend of mine who studied with Madame Chaloff in the 1970s -

As did Kenny Werner, who had nothing but high praise for her in his book.

Aren't people interesting?

[AllenLowe]

it is interesting because a brief perusal of internet hits finds much admiration for her as a teacher and as a person - I just recall my friend (a brilliant jazz pianist, not especially well known but I don't want to mention his name without his permission, and he now lives in Portugal), who is not Jewish, found her - 32 years ago - to have made comments that he felt were very distasteful - all I will add is that there is a lot of genteel anti-semitism that existed particularly among Eastern Europeans and Russians of that generation (I am assuming without perusing other posts here that she was Eastern European or Russian, but I may be wrong) and which Jews may be more sensitive to than non-Jews, and that relates to the whole WWII Nazi-occupation-collaboration-Stalin pact experience both as cause and effect (as in guilt, defensiveness, post-War rationale) -

Edited December 23, 2007 by AllenLowe

[BruceM]

Challof was Russian-Jewish background, this is well documented. Getz was Ukrainian-Jewish. The other great sax player at that time of Jewish descent was Lee Konitz.

[sidewinder]

I thought I read in the bio that Chaloff was Jewish - my memory could be playing tricks on me.

Bertrand.

I too, thought Chaloff was Jewish, so maybe both our memories are playing tricks on us.

Probably Russian, not Russian-Jewish. Also, Margaret is the name of a saint -- not that all Margarets were or are now named after the saint, but back then I believe that many Margarets were. In any case, not too many Jewish girls named Margaret, at least not of Margaret Chaloff's vintage. Also, now that I think of it, not too many Jewish boys named Serge either.

According to the booklet in the Mosaic set, she was of English descent. Margaret of course was not an uncommon name for Anglos of that vintage.

Edited December 23, 2007 by sidewinder

[BillF]

To turn to Serge the musician, having read that Blue Serge was a classic, I rushed out and bought it, but was very disappointed. I found it very difficult to listen to because of what I thought were intonation problems in Serge's playing. Was it that my non-musician's ear wasn't hearing things properly, or was this a deliberate stylistic thing that I would happily accept from Ornette Coleman or Archie Shepp, or did Serge's deteriorating physical state mean that he could no longer control the horn properly? Your views would be appreciated!

He's all over the horn - has complete control. Do you mean he's playing out of tune? Not to my ears, although his vibrato is wide at times... No offence, but if Ornette or (early) Archie is your standard, we may hear things differently ...

Q

Thanks for your response. I shall have to consider the wide vibrato issue. As to my standard, I guess you could say Bird/Lester/Marsh/Wardell/Fats/Bud/Tristano, etc. Perhaps it's my ear. Gigi Gryce always sounds sharp to me. But that's another thread ...

[Quasimado]

To turn to Serge the musician, having read that Blue Serge was a classic, I rushed out and bought it, but was very disappointed. I found it very difficult to listen to because of what I thought were intonation problems in Serge's playing. Was it that my non-musician's ear wasn't hearing things properly, or was this a deliberate stylistic thing that I would happily accept from Ornette Coleman or Archie Shepp, or did Serge's deteriorating physical state mean that he could no longer control the horn properly? Your views would be appreciated!

He's all over the horn - has complete control. Do you mean he's playing out of tune? Not to my ears, although his vibrato is wide at times... No offence, but if Ornette or (early) Archie is your standard, we may hear things differently ...

Q

Thanks for your response. I shall have to consider the wide vibrato issue. As to my standard, I guess you could say Bird/Lester/Marsh/Wardell/Fats/Bud/Tristano, etc.

Q

[bigtiny]

How strange - I swear someone told me the story about the book floating in the water; except that Stan Getz was the culprit.

Could be, but would Getz's tenor book be anywhere as difficult to reconstitute as the bari book? Also, the story -- which certainly may be apocryphal

-- fits Chaloff's personality much better than it does Getz's. (Stan certainly could be evil but not I think in that confrontational manner, at least not with a male figure of authority like Herman.) Finally, the story as told segues nicely into the familiar tale in which Woody pisses on the semi-zonked Serge's leg while both men are standing at a bar.

That was Joe Venuti not Serge Chaloff....

bigtiny

[Don Brown]

No, it was Chaloff. After hearing the story, Joe Venuti scolded Woody about what he'd done to Chaloff, telling him that that was the sort of thing he might have done to someone who'd pissed him off but that Woody was far too nice a guy to have done something so outrageous.