Baseball Steroid Thread

[Dan Gould]

Couple of questions/observations:

- Is it legal to tape the telephone call then play it in public?

- Doesn't this sound like a bitter divorce....one spouse saying I'm sorry I hurt you the other saying the wife and kids are devastated?

- What little I heard of Clemen's conference this evening- isn't he acting like a bully daring people to challenge him?

In Texas and New York (among other states) it is legal to tape so long as one party is aware of it. California and some other states require that both parties are aware.

Yes, it really does sound like a sad breakup, with McNamee in the role of the spouse who is sorry for hurting the other.

That has been Clemens' MO for a very long time. It will be really interesting if he tries to bully the committee members next week - and interesting too if they turn into brown-nosers in his presence. I think there is still a chance for a tough interview, but it really looks like Roger is taking the Pete Rose - Barry Bonds express route to infamy. I wonder if he'll ultimately regret that "take your Hall of Fame vote and shove it" attitude?

[Dave Garrett]

[Dan Gould]

They did a nice job because often its tough to make these edits "work" unless the person used a lot of "down" inflections. When you make a statement, you naturally speak with a down inflection - if there were "up" inflections, the edited sentences would sound off.

But getting past the fun people have messing with his words, I saw on SI - or maybe it was ESPN, something no one else has seemed to notice - that when Wallace asked him whether he'd had contact before the Mitchell report, and he mentioned the email about fishing equipment. Roger said that he didn't say anything about "he was fixin' to bury me".

Notice it wasn't "fixin' to lie about me to the Mitchell report".

"Fixin' to bury me."

Wouldn't we all agree that in common usage, "bury me" means "betray me" or something similar?

[Tim McG]

They did a nice job because often its tough to make these edits "work" unless the person used a lot of "down" inflections. When you make a statement, you naturally speak with a down inflection - if there were "up" inflections, the edited sentences would sound off.

But getting past the fun people have messing with his words, I saw on SI - or maybe it was ESPN, something no one else has seemed to notice - that when Wallace asked him whether he'd had contact before the Mitchell report, and he mentioned the email about fishing equipment. Roger said that he didn't say anything about "he was fixin' to bury me".

Notice it wasn't "fixin' to lie about me to the Mitchell report".

"Fixin' to bury me."

Wouldn't we all agree that in common usage, "bury me" means "betray me" or something similar?

So, if my football team is going to bury your football team....I'm planning to betray you?

I think you're reading way too much into this, Dan.

[T.D.]

I agree (and that's probably a first... ).

I think you're overanalyzing.

I'm taking a step back, and not paying any attention to the various PR gestures. At this point, anything of practical import will be decided in a legal/courtroom forum (or maybe in pre-trial settlement).

FWIW (which is to say squat), I believe that Clemens (and pretty much all the names named, along with myriad other ballplayers) juiced, but think they have a good chance of "getting away" without legal penalties. Which would be fair IMO; I'd consider it mucho inequitable for players to get tagged unless MLB and Players Union execs also pay a comparable price.

[Dan Gould]

On that I disagree, T.D., to the extent that Clemens and Bonds will not and should not get away with false testimony under oath. Should there be legal or baseball penalties for those who juiced? No, I don't think so. But Bonds and Clemens have or intend to testify falsely, and there should be a penalty for it.

[TedR]

I think the phrase "bury me" is very telling as to what's going on here. As opposed to a court of law verdict, we're entitled to opinions based on Clemens words. My opinion all along has been that Clemens' outrage comes from a "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" mentality. Steroids isn't the issue to him. After all, if many players do steroids how can it be cheating. Isn't sacrificing one's body for the team considered honorable? I think Clemens knows his trainer didn't lie. The sin, in Clemens mind, is betraying baseball and, even worse, a buddy. Loyalty has much higher value in many organizations than honesty does.

[BERIGAN]

As someone who doesn't care about baseball, why the fuck is Congress wasting our tax dollars on this bullshit?

Because GEE Dumbya needs a smoke screen for his failed Iraq War, housing/mortgage crisis and environmental gaffs.

Bush is all about the cover not the reality.

Gosh, didn't know Harry Waxman was on the Bush payroll as well!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/14/...in3618383.shtml

[Dan Gould]

As someone who doesn't care about baseball, why the fuck is Congress wasting our tax dollars on this bullshit?

Because GEE Dumbya needs a smoke screen for his failed Iraq War, housing/mortgage crisis and environmental gaffs.

Bush is all about the cover not the reality.

Gosh, didn't know Harry Waxman was on the Bush payroll as well!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/14/...in3618383.shtml

Thanks for revealing the latest asinine statement. It really is nice to know that the Democratic majority in the House is doing the President's bidding.

[T.D.]

Yes, you're correct, the perjury issue is clear-cut. But I hate seeing moronic Selig and greedhead Fehr getting away essentially scot-free.

And there's a big-ass dose of hypocrisy by Congress. There's been a truckload of juice-related deaths in professional wrestling; why didn't the politicians step in and shut that business down long ago?

[Dan Gould]

I think the phrase "bury me" is very telling as to what's going on here. As opposed to a court of law verdict, we're entitled to opinions based on Clemens words. My opinion all along has been that Clemens' outrage comes from a "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" mentality. Steroids isn't the issue to him. After all, if many players do steroids how can it be cheating. Isn't sacrificing one's body for the team considered honorable? I think Clemens knows his trainer didn't lie. The sin, in Clemens mind, is betraying baseball and, even worse, a buddy. Loyalty has much higher value in many organizations than honesty does.

Good points. I think the proof that he knows he didn't lie is in the taped conversation - when asked what he should do, Clemens never said "tell the truth". That's not because of the risk of a charge of witness tampering. How can advising someone to tell the truth constitute witness tampering? Its encouraging someone to be forthright and honest! If he tells him what to say, that is witness tampering. But to tell him to tell the truth cannot possibly constitute tampering.

But, Clemens can't say "tell the truth" because he knows that the truth destroys him.

And as for the whole "he won't take a lie detector test" statement by the sleezy lawyer: When the question is a he said/he said situation, and its a battle for public opinion, don't you think any lawyer worth his salt would order up a polygraph? If he passes it, you trumpet it everywhere you can as "proof" that he is telling the truth. The fact that he won't take one is compelling evidence to me that he took one and failed it.

[Tim McG]

On that I disagree, T.D., to the extent that Clemens and Bonds will not and should not get away with false testimony under oath. Should there be legal or baseball penalties for those who juiced? No, I don't think so. But Bonds and Clemens have or intend to testify falsely, and there should be a penalty for it.

Assuming, of course, they have lied.

[Tim McG]

As someone who doesn't care about baseball, why the fuck is Congress wasting our tax dollars on this bullshit?

Because GEE Dumbya needs a smoke screen for his failed Iraq War, housing/mortgage crisis and environmental gaffs.

Bush is all about the cover not the reality.

Gosh, didn't know Harry Waxman was on the Bush payroll as well!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/14/...in3618383.shtml

I don't think one needs to be on the payroll to help the Bushites try to divert attention away from their failures and lies to the American people.

They have done this time and again.

It is comparable, I think, to Katherine Harris and the Florida election scam: Being a registered Demo does not keep someone from helping the Bushites.

Edited January 9, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

As someone who doesn't care about baseball, why the fuck is Congress wasting our tax dollars on this bullshit?

Because GEE Dumbya needs a smoke screen for his failed Iraq War, housing/mortgage crisis and environmental gaffs.

Bush is all about the cover not the reality.

Gosh, didn't know Harry Waxman was on the Bush payroll as well!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/14/...in3618383.shtml

Thanks for revealing the latest asinine statement. It really is nice to know that the Democratic majority in the House is doing the President's bidding.

Bush vetos everything, Dan. You know that.

[Jazzmoose]

I think the phrase "bury me" is very telling as to what's going on here. As opposed to a court of law verdict, we're entitled to opinions based on Clemens words. My opinion all along has been that Clemens' outrage comes from a "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" mentality. Steroids isn't the issue to him. After all, if many players do steroids how can it be cheating. Isn't sacrificing one's body for the team considered honorable? I think Clemens knows his trainer didn't lie. The sin, in Clemens mind, is betraying baseball and, even worse, a buddy. Loyalty has much higher value in many organizations than honesty does.

I think you've nailed it perfectly, Ted.

[Dan Gould]

Gotta share this comment in today's Times, by Murray Chass, who apparently actually still has some functioning brain cells:

... when Brian McNamee, his former trainer, asked him repeatedly during their telephone conversation last Friday, “What do you want me to do?” why didn’t Clemens tell him: “Just tell the truth: I didn’t take steroids.”

The problem is McNamee might have responded, “I have told the truth, Roger, and you know it.”

In the view of a New York criminal defense lawyer, who spoke on the condition of anonymity: “If you are purer than the driven snow, you fear no response. You ask only for an honest and truthful exoneration.”

[Dan Gould]

This is highly unlikely to work in Roger's favor:

Clemens hearing postponed

Posted: Wednesday January 9, 2008 3:40PM; Updated: Wednesday January 9, 2008 4:41PM

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The U.S. congressional hearing involving pitching stars Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte and former trainer Brian McNamee was postponed on Wednesday until Feb. 13 so lawmakers can gather evidence and coordinate their investigation with the Justice Department.

Sounds to me that its likely that the Justice Department is getting ready to move on Clemens, or is ready to make a move pending any denial he makes under oath. Regardless, the gathering of evidence and coordination of an investigation with the Justice Department, which already regards McNamee as credible, is a very bad sign for the Texas Con Man.

How long before Roger's attorney makes noise about a "rush to judgment" or a 'stacked deck' or heaven forbid, reasons why Roger might not be able to attend after all?

[Tim McG]

I think the phrase "bury me" is very telling as to what's going on here. As opposed to a court of law verdict, we're entitled to opinions based on Clemens words. My opinion all along has been that Clemens' outrage comes from a "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" mentality. Steroids isn't the issue to him. After all, if many players do steroids how can it be cheating. Isn't sacrificing one's body for the team considered honorable? I think Clemens knows his trainer didn't lie. The sin, in Clemens mind, is betraying baseball and, even worse, a buddy. Loyalty has much higher value in many organizations than honesty does.

I think you've nailed it perfectly, Ted.

Agreed.

Good post, Ted.

[T.D.]

Marion Jones got the maximum sentence.

Commentators are saying that the ballplayers facing perjury charges should be worried.

[Dan Gould]

But isn't that only Barry Bonds?

Interesting story today about absesses on Clemens' buttocks, and the statement by a doctor (this was in the NYT) that while any injection can cause an absess, they are more common with steroid injections. The Toronto people they interviewed couldn't recall Clemens getting treatment, but who knows what might appear in the medical records? The real interesting thing is that I think it suggests the Feds are looking for external corrabaration of McNamee's story, and that can only mean that they are waiting for the opportunity to take Clemens down on a perjury charge.

[7/4]

Marion Jones got the maximum sentence.

Commentators are saying that the ballplayers facing perjury charges should be worried.

Let 'em hang. Off with their heads.

[Randy Twizzle]

Interesting story today about absesses on Clemens' buttocks,...

With all due respect, nothing about Clemens' buttocks holds any interest for me.

[Free For All]

absesses on Clemens' buttocks

"......and whiskers on kittens......"

[Chalupa]

Congress asking Justice Department to investigate Tejada

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3197286

[Dan Gould]

Congress asking Justice Department to investigate Tejada

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3197286

That can't be! Haven't you heard? They only hound Barry Bonds!