Baseball Steroid Thread

[papsrus]

My problem with the Steroid Witch Hunt is that there was a culture of steroid use which was ignored if not endorsed by the owners and coaching staffs. MLB had no problem cashing in on the Steroid Home Run Derby, and fans packed the stadiums to watch the balls fly out of the yard. The hitters were juiced, the pitchers were juiced, AND they tightened up the strings on the balls to make sure they flew extra far. To put this at the feet of the players, and not include the trainers, coaching staffs, FANS, and owners who looked the other way, is bullshit. And we heard about it as fans. Now everyone is all up in arms and crying about the "sacred" records and all this nonsense.

Well, I say it's crap. The baseball world should collectively accept responsibility, let all the records stand since nearly everyone was guilty to a certain degree, and MOVE ON. Get over it. It happened. It wasn't Barry Bonds' fault or Roger Clemens' fault. It was damn near everybody's fault.

You make a very good point. Now if only Clemens and Bonds had the courage to say the same thing.

[Tim McG]

The whole reference in that sentence is to another person altogether - "Bonds made a deal with HIM", meaning a third party, clearly Gregg Anderson. Clearly NOT Clemens. That makes no sense whatsoever.

I don't think there is any other way to read that. Context is important.

Plus, Dan clarified it so there would be no confusion, and you're STILL arguing about it??

"....OR the man is secretly in love with Barroid and just can't bring himself to put him in prison."

I guess if you leave out the most important part of his sentence there wouldn't be any other way to read that, Aggie.

Context, in the whole, is important. I won't argue with you on that point. Cut and paste, is manipulation.

Dan clarified? Please. This is a guy who honestly believes steroids make you hit HRs. Then hurls insults when he knows he's dead wrong.

Be realistic, Aggie.

You're arguing over semantics, and it is a meaningless argument now that Dan has spelled out specifically what he meant.

Anabolic steroids help increase muscle mass. More muscle means more power. More power means longer fly balls.

You must be the only person in America who does not acknowledge that steroids, HGH and other PEDs (which stands for 'performance-enhancing drugs,' which should give you a hint as to their purpose) don't increase an athlete's performance levels, shorten recovery times, enhance training methods, help someone who can already hit a baseball hit that baseball farther.

What is the basis for this belief of yours? Do you have any widely accepted medical evidence that shows steroids don't affect the performance of an athlete? That they don't add muscle mass? Don't shorten recovery times?

OK.

So he's still proposing a love tryst between Anderson [assuming this is what he meant] and Bonds. Either way it is still plenty fucking stupid. But that's Danny.

And I am not going to go over this whole insane notion of believing steroids make you hit HRs. It is sheer foolishness to believe that. I suggest you go back an read what I have already written on this topic. If this were the case, anybody who took steroids would be hitting HRs like they were going out of style. Guess what, that didn't happen either. Amazing, huh.

All sorts of things enhance a player's performance from "boo-boo" juice to aspirin to anti-inflamatories to knee braces and all points in between.

My problem with the Steroid Witch Hunt is that there was a culture of steroid use which was ignored if not endorsed by the owners and coaching staffs. MLB had no problem cashing in on the Steroid Home Run Derby, and fans packed the stadiums to watch the balls fly out of the yard. The hitters were juiced, the pitchers were juiced, AND they tightened up the strings on the balls to make sure they flew extra far. To put this at the feet of the players, and not include the trainers, coaching staffs, FANS, and owners who looked the other way, is bullshit. And we heard about it as fans. Now everyone is all up in arms and crying about the "sacred" records and all this nonsense.

Well, I say it's crap. The baseball world should collectively accept responsibility, let all the records stand since nearly everyone was guilty to a certain degree, and MOVE ON. Get over it. It happened. It wasn't Barry Bonds' fault or Roger Clemens' fault. It was damn near everybody's fault.

Exactly, Jon.

Well put.

My problem with the Steroid Witch Hunt is that there was a culture of steroid use which was ignored if not endorsed by the owners and coaching staffs. MLB had no problem cashing in on the Steroid Home Run Derby, and fans packed the stadiums to watch the balls fly out of the yard. The hitters were juiced, the pitchers were juiced, AND they tightened up the strings on the balls to make sure they flew extra far. To put this at the feet of the players, and not include the trainers, coaching staffs, FANS, and owners who looked the other way, is bullshit. And we heard about it as fans. Now everyone is all up in arms and crying about the "sacred" records and all this nonsense.

Well, I say it's crap. The baseball world should collectively accept responsibility, let all the records stand since nearly everyone was guilty to a certain degree, and MOVE ON. Get over it. It happened. It wasn't Barry Bonds' fault or Roger Clemens' fault. It was damn near everybody's fault.

You make a very good point. Now if only Clemens and Bonds had the courage to say the same thing.

And you just missed the point of Noj's post.

Edited August 27, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[papsrus]

No. But whatever ...

[papsrus]

And I am not going to go over this whole insane notion of believing steroids make you hit HRs. It is sheer foolishness to believe that. I suggest you go back an read what I have already written on this topic. If this were the case, anybody who took steroids would be hitting HRs like they were going out of style. Guess what, that didn't happen either. Amazing, huh.

Sorry. Couldn't let this pass.

Your argument above amounts to the following:

1) Group A doesn't hit more home runs after taking steroids, so that proves that steroids have no effect on home runs.

2) Group B does hit more home runs after taking steroids, so that is evidence of nothing in particular.

Do you see how you uncritically accept evidence that supports your already-held beliefs, and reject any evidence that challenges your already-held beliefs?

Is it possible that Group B includes more players who are already power hitters? Do you reject this possibility without knowing the answer?

In any case, whether you believe or don't believe steroids help a power hitter hit more home runs, there is no question that steroids aid overall performance, recovery, etc. Again, you seem to be the only person in America who rejects this.

Edited August 27, 2010 by papsrus

[Dan Gould]

Nobody is going back to read the nonsensical lunacy of what you've written about steroids, Timmy, for the exact same reason that no one goes back to read the Unabomber's manifesto.

They both come from the addled mind of a freaking loon.

[Jazzmoose]

Here is your post yet again:

Keep dreaming Timmy.

The only difference between Bonds and Clemens is that Bonds either made a deal with him to keep his mouth shut, or the man is secretly in love with Barroid and just can't bring himself to put him in prison, while Clemens couldn't stand the fact that some peon had squealed and went after said peon with a vengeance.

The former is a much smarter play.

I dunno, Danny. You are saying, word for word, Clemens is in love with Bonds.

Seriously, I do not know how anyone can read this and expect it to mean anything else.

And yet damn near everyone does....funny, huh?

[Chalupa]

My problem with the Steroid Witch Hunt is that there was a culture of steroid use which was ignored if not endorsed by the owners and coaching staffs. MLB had no problem cashing in on the Steroid Home Run Derby, and fans packed the stadiums to watch the balls fly out of the yard. The hitters were juiced, the pitchers were juiced, AND they tightened up the strings on the balls to make sure they flew extra far. To put this at the feet of the players, and not include the trainers, coaching staffs, FANS, and owners who looked the other way, is bullshit. And we heard about it as fans. Now everyone is all up in arms and crying about the "sacred" records and all this nonsense.

Well, I say it's crap. The baseball world should collectively accept responsibility, let all the records stand since nearly everyone was guilty to a certain degree, and MOVE ON. Get over it. It happened. It wasn't Barry Bonds' fault or Roger Clemens' fault. It was damn near everybody's fault.

You make a very good point. Now if only Clemens and Bonds had the courage to say the same thing.

Strongly disagree. First of all not all of the players from the "steroid era" were on PEDs. So far only 128 players have been caught or implicated for using PEDs. Math isn't one of my strong suits but that seems like a pretty small % out of the total numbers of players who have played in the MLB in the past 20 years. So not everyone was guilty. Not even close. But regardless of how many players took PEDs my main point is this - you can't let those steroid records stand because if you do, it's the same thing as saying it's OK to cheat, which is clearly wrong. Furthermore what about the guys whose records were broken that didn't take PEDs?? Is that fair to have some juicer in the books instead of them?? Hell no. While I'll sympathetic to the let's "MOVE ON" sentiment - because frankly I think we're all getting tired of hearing about steroids at this point - it would be wrong to turn our back on what happened and pretend there are no consequences for one's actions. That's not how life works.

Edit: Need to clarify. I do agree w/ your main point about collective responsibility but I disagree about what MLB's response should be.

Edited August 27, 2010 by J.H. Deeley

[Noj]

My problem with the Steroid Witch Hunt is that there was a culture of steroid use which was ignored if not endorsed by the owners and coaching staffs. MLB had no problem cashing in on the Steroid Home Run Derby, and fans packed the stadiums to watch the balls fly out of the yard. The hitters were juiced, the pitchers were juiced, AND they tightened up the strings on the balls to make sure they flew extra far. To put this at the feet of the players, and not include the trainers, coaching staffs, FANS, and owners who looked the other way, is bullshit. And we heard about it as fans. Now everyone is all up in arms and crying about the "sacred" records and all this nonsense.

Well, I say it's crap. The baseball world should collectively accept responsibility, let all the records stand since nearly everyone was guilty to a certain degree, and MOVE ON. Get over it. It happened. It wasn't Barry Bonds' fault or Roger Clemens' fault. It was damn near everybody's fault.

You make a very good point. Now if only Clemens and Bonds had the courage to say the same thing.

Strongly disagree. First of all not all of the players from the "steroid era" were on PEDs. So far only 128 players have been caught or implicated for using PEDs. Math isn't one of my strong suits but that seems like a pretty small % out of the total numbers of players who have played in the MLB in the past 20 years. So not everyone was guilty. Not even close. But regardless of how many players took PEDs my main point is this - you can't let those steroid records stand because if you do, it's the same thing as saying it's OK to cheat, which is clearly wrong. Furthermore what about the guys whose records were broken that didn't take PEDs?? Is that fair to have some juicer in the books instead of them?? Hell no. While I'll sympathetic to the let's "MOVE ON" sentiment - because frankly I think we're all getting tired of hearing about steroids at this point - it would be wrong to turn our back on what happened and pretend there are no consequences for one's actions. That's not how life works.

In my mind MLB did say "it's OK to cheat," while it was happening. So MLB is in no position to punish the players whose enhanced abilities it cashed in on at the time. An average Joe like me knew McGwire was juicing without even knowing a test result. The guy had forearms like calves and was hitting 500' moon shots. While the stadium was being packed, and no one was blabbing about it, MLB had no problem with it. Once it became a public issue, now they're right to throw those guys under the bus retroactively?

Some of the stuff which is now banned/illegal/known to be dangerous could be had OTC. I knew guys who were using stuff like Creatine. They bought it at GNC and blew up into musclebound meatheads in no time.

[Chalupa]

Yes, MLB is culpable in the steroid era, no doubt about it. But don't you think it's wrong to for the players who didn't take PEDs to have their records taken away by players that did take PEDs?? That doesn't seem right to me.

I don't know what the solution to cleaning up the record book is but something needs to be done about it, IMHO.

[Tim McG]

Here is your post yet again:

Keep dreaming Timmy.

The only difference between Bonds and Clemens is that Bonds either made a deal with him to keep his mouth shut, or the man is secretly in love with Barroid and just can't bring himself to put him in prison, while Clemens couldn't stand the fact that some peon had squealed and went after said peon with a vengeance.

The former is a much smarter play.

I dunno, Danny. You are saying, word for word, Clemens is in love with Bonds.

Seriously, I do not know how anyone can read this and expect it to mean anything else.

And yet damn near everyone does....funny, huh?

Sure.

If the four people who said they did are the only ones on this BBS.

And so what if this whole BBS disagreed with what I wrote? Grammatically and contextually, there is no other way to read what Danny wrote. Why you would think differently is, of course, your business.

Edited August 28, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

Then please explain the entire sentence, specifically the last clause of the paragraph and the final sentence.

The only difference between Bonds and Clemens is that Bonds either made a deal with him to keep his mouth shut, or the man is secretly in love with Barroid and just can't bring himself to put him in prison, while Clemens couldn't stand the fact that some peon had squealed and went after said peon with a vengeance.

The former is a much smarter play.

According to your contextual reading comprehension, "peon" would have to refer to Bonds. But why would Clemens, if he were secretly in love with Barry, regard him as a peon? And what about the last sentence? What are the "plays" being compared?

I think I got it - Roger loved Barry. Barry is a peon because Barry was Roger's "bottom" right? That must be what I meant by "peon".

I apologize to everybody but Timmy for putting that image in your head. But it is the logical conclusion stemming from his utter lack of comprehension skills.

[Tim McG]

Yeah bullshit, Danny.

Fobbing off your responsibility yet again. Nothing new here.

Figures.

Edited August 28, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

Thanks for demonstrating that you are incapable of responding to my question and in fact you cannot reconcile the second half of the sentence with your insane interpretation of the first half, or admit that the second half of the sentence makes clear what the first half intended.

[Tim McG]

My problem with the Steroid Witch Hunt is that there was a culture of steroid use which was ignored if not endorsed by the owners and coaching staffs. MLB had no problem cashing in on the Steroid Home Run Derby, and fans packed the stadiums to watch the balls fly out of the yard. The hitters were juiced, the pitchers were juiced, AND they tightened up the strings on the balls to make sure they flew extra far. To put this at the feet of the players, and not include the trainers, coaching staffs, FANS, and owners who looked the other way, is bullshit. And we heard about it as fans. Now everyone is all up in arms and crying about the "sacred" records and all this nonsense.

Well, I say it's crap. The baseball world should collectively accept responsibility, let all the records stand since nearly everyone was guilty to a certain degree, and MOVE ON. Get over it. It happened. It wasn't Barry Bonds' fault or Roger Clemens' fault. It was damn near everybody's fault.

You make a very good point. Now if only Clemens and Bonds had the courage to say the same thing.

Strongly disagree. First of all not all of the players from the "steroid era" were on PEDs. So far only 128 players have been caught or implicated for using PEDs. Math isn't one of my strong suits but that seems like a pretty small % out of the total numbers of players who have played in the MLB in the past 20 years. So not everyone was guilty. Not even close. But regardless of how many players took PEDs my main point is this - you can't let those steroid records stand because if you do, it's the same thing as saying it's OK to cheat, which is clearly wrong. Furthermore what about the guys whose records were broken that didn't take PEDs?? Is that fair to have some juicer in the books instead of them?? Hell no. While I'll sympathetic to the let's "MOVE ON" sentiment - because frankly I think we're all getting tired of hearing about steroids at this point - it would be wrong to turn our back on what happened and pretend there are no consequences for one's actions. That's not how life works.

In my mind MLB did say "it's OK to cheat," while it was happening. So MLB is in no position to punish the players whose enhanced abilities it cashed in on at the time. An average Joe like me knew McGwire was juicing without even knowing a test result. The guy had forearms like calves and was hitting 500' moon shots. While the stadium was being packed, and no one was blabbing about it, MLB had no problem with it. Once it became a public issue, now they're right to throw those guys under the bus retroactively?

Some of the stuff which is now banned/illegal/known to be dangerous could be had OTC. I knew guys who were using stuff like Creatine. They bought it at GNC and blew up into musclebound meatheads in no time.

Right on, Noj.

This whole business was brought on by and encouraged by the greedy team owners hellbent for profit and at the expense of the ballplayers themselves. I couldn't have said it better.

Thanks for demonstrating that you are incapable of responding to my question and in fact you cannot reconcile the second half of the sentence with your insane interpretation of the first half, or admit that the second half of the sentence makes clear what the first half intended.

I teach English, Danny.

You are dead wrong here and, quite obviously, in over your head on this one.

My advice?

Quit while you're behind.

[Dan Gould]

You teach English.

Oh my fucking God. How the fuck have you kept your job?

Everyone on the fucking board knows what I meant. Everyone who has commented has some sort of variation on "what the fuck is the matter with you Timmy?" and you say I am in over my head.

I feared for the future when I learned you are a teacher. Now I'm flat out terrified. Our one hope is that CA wises up and does something about the teacher's union power to protect incompetents. When it doesn't take a half a million dollars to fire an incompetent like you, CA might be at the start of something good.

[vajerzy]

And in other news today, Dan and GoodSpeak disagree.....

You guys are friends.....right?

[papsrus]

What's more worrisome is the apparent inability of an English teacher to grasp a clarification.

Even if the initial sentence was subject to misinterpretation (I did not read it the way Goodspeak did, but ... ) a crystal-clear clarification has been made. So what's the point of continuing to intentionally misinterpret what was said?

[Dan Gould]

Keep in mind that he chose to name his business in a grammatically fucked up way.

Do we speak good?

OR

Do we speak well?

The fact that he calls it and himself "Goodspeak" says a great deal.

[Tim McG]

GoodSpeak is the English translation of the Latin prefix and root found in the word "benediction".

Bene- means good; diction- means speak. Hence, GoodSpeak. I also majored in Speech Communications. My business works with people on verbal and written communication skill, multi-media presentations, sales presentations and I do public address announcing for local HS football and baseball games. Understand now...?

This "clarification" which came after the idiotic sentence Danny wrote is only half the issue. Plus, if he meant Anderson instead of Clemens it is still moronic. He says stupid shit like this all the time [you haven't noticed?]. Somebody is always in love with Bonds. Perhaps owing to some type of latent man-love tendencies on his part, I won't speculate. Aside from that, I was calling him on it and pointing out his lack of sentence structure skill.

Danny, I keep my job because I actually do my job. I teach English, not how to be a jerk trying to make something out of nothing just to piss people off for no good reason. Take the hint.

Game,set and match.

Next...

Edited August 28, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

I teach English, not how to be a jerk trying to make something out of nothing just to piss people off for no good reason. Take the hint.

Oh. My. Fucking. God.

You haven't made something out of nothing just to piss someone off for no good reason?

Pot, meet kettle.

You fucking joke.

[Tim McG]

[heaviest of sighs]

Yeah, whatever Danny.

I am very good at what I do. Which, based upon your bullshit, I have wonder how in the hell you are still employed.

Deal with the issues, Danny....if you can.

[Dan Gould]

How would we possibly know when your Union prevents any study of how teachers effect student performance, Timmy?

Is there any possible reason to believe anything but that you are a typical 50-something teacher who hangs onto his job simply due to union protection of seniority "rights"? Like I said, when incompetent teachers can be fired without first spending half a million dollars, CA will have finally done something right.

Starting with you.

Now, anyone else think that Timmy has been making "something out of nothing just to piss someone off for no good reason?"

Is this not exactly what he's been yammering about for the last three days?

[Larry Kart]

Gentlemen -- This thread seems to me to have degenerated into pure name-calling. I'm going to suggest to my fellow moderators that we shut it down unless.... And maybe not even "unless."

[Tim McG]

How would we possibly know when your Union prevents any study of how teachers effect student performance, Timmy?

Is there any possible reason to believe anything but that you are a typical 50-something teacher who hangs onto his job simply due to union protection of seniority "rights"? Like I said, when incompetent teachers can be fired without first spending half a million dollars, CA will have finally done something right.

Starting with you.

Now, anyone else think that Timmy has been making "something out of nothing just to piss someone off for no good reason?"

Is this not exactly what he's been yammering about for the last three days?

Oh, I see...it's the big scary Union which helps me keep my job, eh?

Well, try this on for size, big boy: I have been in this business since 1977. In my current position, this is my 29th season.

If I was such a fuck-up, they could have fired me YEARS ago, Danny. Guess what? I get nothing less than sterling bi-yearly evaluations and I am called upon to mentor the newbie teachers. In fact, I have done several presentations at the California Association of Teachers of English [CATE] yearly conferences wherein I teach new teachers how to teach.

Because you have such a myopic view of what this business entails, means and represents I cannot possibly expect you to understand this simple concept: I am a sought after presenter and a leader in the CATE organization. I am very good at what I do and I simply do not need your approval to make it so.

Basically, you don't know shit from Shinola about who I am or what I do. But that's not news. Your inane commentary on this BBS is the stuff of legend, Danny.

Now why don't you just suck it up, go to bed and then go soak your head in the morning.

Quit while you're behind, Danny. The more you yap about stuff you know NOTHING about the more you prove to the World how completely ignorant you are.

In short: STFU.

Edited August 29, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[papsrus]

Well, I don't know about your teaching skills, but you sure don't know how to drive. You just blew right through a stop sign.