Baseball Steroid Thread

[Noj]

First I'd heard of anything with Ortiz. Oh well. I really don't care about any of it since I think so many players were juicing that it is a moot point.

[Dan Gould]

Can't wait til Goody comes and spews forth. I've been waiting for the chance to adopt my live and let live approach.

"That's your opinion, Tim, and you are entitled to it. You'd be wrong though."

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Dave James]

Whether he did or didn't juice isn't the issue. The press will treat this as they usually do, i.e. guilty until proven innocent, although because of Papi's previous protestations, there may be more ankle biting than usual. The upside of this for a Yankee fan is that it will seriously disrupt the bean town clubhouse.

Up over and out.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Dave James

[Chalupa]

They need to release the whole list right now. No more of this leaking names through the press in drips and drabs. It's like bleeding to death from a 1000 paper cuts.

[Dan Gould]

That's certainly true. And why was this leaked now? So much happening in Boston ... and epic collapse, Dice-K mouthing off to the Japanese press, these potentially big blockbuster trades being discussed ... and I bet it was some Yankee fan lawyer who blabbed.

[david weiss]

Not that I really care but if I were to suspect someone of juicing, Papi would be on that list. Playing at Fenway helped but he was so mediocre as a Twin. That said, I don't think there is any drug that gives you that ability to come through in the clutch like he did.

I'm bothered by the whole leaking of these confidential tests. They were supposed to be confidential and I think it is probably a crime to leak this information but nobody is touching that. Yes, perhaps if you cheated you should be outed but if the tests where taken under the conditions of anonymity then that should be protected at all costs. It's not fair that just a few have been leaked and of course it's just some of the stars so this whole process is smelly. Lawyers working on these cases are leaking this stuff, is that right? The Bonds thing is ridiculous, he tested negative but the government seized the sample and tested it themselves and got a positive test? There is just something flat out wrong about that. I'm tempted to totally contradict myself and say that at this point you might as well release all the names as fair is fair and maybe this will dilute the attention from the few that were outed but ultimately the outing of any of these players is a result of what essentially is criminal behavior and I'm always a little scared when government agencies and other agencies of power operate outside of the law to get what they want.

Edited July 30, 2009 by david weiss

[Quincy]

They need to release the whole list right now. No more of this leaking names through the press in drips and drabs. It's like bleeding to death from a 1000 paper cuts.

I'm curious about how many bottom tier guys make up the list. I wouldn't be surprised if 40 of the names are either out of baseball or are such marginal players only extreme fans know who they are.

[Dave James]

That's certainly true. And why was this leaked now? So much happening in Boston ... and epic collapse, Dice-K mouthing off to the Japanese press, these potentially big blockbuster trades being discussed ... and I bet it was some Yankee fan lawyer who blabbed.

Up over and out.

[Dan Gould]

Not that I really care but if I were to suspect someone of juicing, Papi would be on that list. Playing at Fenway helped but he was so mediocre as a Twin. That said, I don't think there is any drug that gives you that ability to come through in the clutch like he did.

I'm bothered by the whole leaking of these confidential tests. They were supposed to be confidential and I think it is probably a crime to leak this information but nobody is touching that. Yes, perhaps if you cheated you should be outed but if the tests where taken under the conditions of anonymity then that should be protected at all costs. It's not fair that just a few have been leaked and of course it's just some of the stars so this whole process is smelly. Lawyers working on these cases are leaking this stuff, is that right? The Bonds thing is ridiculous, he tested negative but the government seized the sample and tested it themselves and got a positive test? There is just something flat out wrong about that. I'm tempted to totally contradict myself and say that at this point you might as well release all the names as fair is fair and maybe this will dilute the attention from the few that were outed but ultimately the outing of any of these players is a result of what essentially is criminal behavior and I'm always a little scared when government agencies and other agencies of power operate outside of the law to get what they want.

Bonds tested negative because there was no test for the designer steroid he got from BALCO. That is why a re-test gave a positive result, they knew what they were looking for.

As for Papi, he never came close to getting muscular like so many confirmed 'roid users did. He was always a pretty big guy, and he surely never looked like he spent a lot of time working out. Furthermore, as to his performance in Minnesota, its been widely reported how their coaching effected his power hitting, as encapsulated in this story:

One year in Minnesota, with a runner at second, he took a mighty cut and flew out CF. He got yelled at because he didn't ground out to the right side to advance the runner. He learned his lesson and when he came to Boston, in the same situation in a spring training game, he grounded to second and was promptly told that they want him to give the ball a ride, not worry about advancing the runner.

In short, he was set loose in Boston from a very constrained environment in Minnesota.

[david weiss]

Not that I really care but if I were to suspect someone of juicing, Papi would be on that list. Playing at Fenway helped but he was so mediocre as a Twin. That said, I don't think there is any drug that gives you that ability to come through in the clutch like he did.

I'm bothered by the whole leaking of these confidential tests. They were supposed to be confidential and I think it is probably a crime to leak this information but nobody is touching that. Yes, perhaps if you cheated you should be outed but if the tests where taken under the conditions of anonymity then that should be protected at all costs. It's not fair that just a few have been leaked and of course it's just some of the stars so this whole process is smelly. Lawyers working on these cases are leaking this stuff, is that right? The Bonds thing is ridiculous, he tested negative but the government seized the sample and tested it themselves and got a positive test? There is just something flat out wrong about that. I'm tempted to totally contradict myself and say that at this point you might as well release all the names as fair is fair and maybe this will dilute the attention from the few that were outed but ultimately the outing of any of these players is a result of what essentially is criminal behavior and I'm always a little scared when government agencies and other agencies of power operate outside of the law to get what they want.

Bonds tested negative because there was no test for the designer steroid he got from BALCO. That is why a re-test gave a positive result, they knew what they were looking for.

As for Papi, he never came close to getting muscular like so many confirmed 'roid users did. He was always a pretty big guy, and he surely never looked like he spent a lot of time working out. Furthermore, as to his performance in Minnesota, its been widely reported how their coaching effected his power hitting, as encapsulated in this story:

One year in Minnesota, with a runner at second, he took a mighty cut and flew out CF. He got yelled at because he didn't ground out to the right side to advance the runner. He learned his lesson and when he came to Boston, in the same situation in a spring training game, he grounded to second and was promptly told that they want him to give the ball a ride, not worry about advancing the runner.

In short, he was set loose in Boston from a very constrained environment in Minnesota.

Good points Dan.

That is interesting about Bonds but again opens up many cans of worms about how legal all this is. Retesting a sample that was given on the condition of anonymity and should have been destroyed is problematic to me. I just saw Donald Fehr's statement on ESPN and it is dead on, check it out.

Interesting about Papi as well. Good to know Boston hitting coaches straightened him out but the steroids probably helped a little as well if he did in fact take them.

At this point, I just don't care anymore. It's an all or nothing proposition to me at this point, since I don't really know who took them and to what extent, I'm just going to go with everyone did it and that's the reality of baseball in this era. Nobody can really definitively say who did what. One positive test means you did it your whole career or just that year or your denials are tailored to an anonymous test you know about and are hoping won't be leaked or it was leaked so you claim you only did steroids that years or maybe one or two more years to make it sound believable. It's all so pathetic and becoming a non-issue to me. Focus on testing to keep it clean from now on and move on because there is no way to figure out this mess. Barry Bonds and Manny Ramirez are probably my favorite recent players and I was a little disappointed when the reports of their positive tests came out but it really didn't change my feeling about them much or really undo their accomplishments. I loved watching them hit, it was a thing of beauty. If steroids enhanced that a bit oh well but they were still amazing, disciplined hitters with great technique and beautiful swings.

Since this is a jazz forum let me put this out there though it really doesn't have much to do with this. I do a lot of touring with a lot of different people. Touring can be grueling and I'm often exhausted and but usually find the energy to get through a gig on pure adrenaline when I'm tired and sometimes the music just takes me over and energizes me but this can only take a person only so far for so long. Now maybe one or two guys are bouncing off the walls full of energy because they did some coke while we are dragging our asses. Are they cheating?

Edited July 30, 2009 by david weiss

[BruceH]

Bonds tested negative because there was no test for the designer steroid he got from BALCO. That is why a re-test gave a positive result, they knew what they were looking for.

That sounds right, from what I've heard.

[Dan Gould]

And equally important, in the case of Bonds' "anonymous" sample in 2003, is that the Feds got a valid search warrant before it was destroyed. The court said they were entitled to get that sample and test it but due to a screw up by the Union, they ended up getting everybody's result, as well as the list of what anonymous sample matched up with what player. This is why there are 104 names out there of which we've now heard, what, five or six?

So Bonds' result is legitimate, it was subject to a search warrant. Everything else fell into the Feds hands and has been in legal limbo ever since because they want to talk to these people about sources and the union is trying to prevent that from happening.

[Aggie87]

Since this is a jazz forum let me put this out there though it really doesn't have much to do with this. I do a lot of touring with a lot of different people. Touring can be grueling and I'm often exhausted and but usually find the energy to get through a gig on pure adrenaline when I'm tired and sometimes the music just takes me over and energizes me but this can only take a person only so far for so long. Now maybe one or two guys are bouncing off the walls full of energy because they did some coke while we are dragging our asses. Are they cheating?

I don't think this is a real fair comparison, David. Sports involve competition, and records are there to be broken. Some of which - like the all time Home Run record - are tainted by the cloud of steroids, as compared to the previous generations.

In music, that's obviously more artistic than competitive. I don't think using a form of enhancement in music affects the opinion and public standing of the artist like it does the athlete.

[Chalupa]

Canseco says MLB facing bigger issue

Jose Canseco, whose 2005 book arguably started the cascade of revelations and an investigation into the use of performance-enhancing drugs in baseball, barely raised an eyebrow when he was told David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez are reportedly on the list of 104 players who tested positive in 2003.

"When you tell me something I didn't already know, I'll be surprised," Canseco told ESPN. "And I'll tell you this, Major League Baseball is going to have a big, big problem on their hands when they find out they have a Hall of Famer who's used."

When asked to name who that Hall of Fame player is, Canseco refused to divulge who he believes it is.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4367025

So anyone want to take a guess as to who the HoF juicer is???? I'm thinking it's gotta be Ricky Henderson.

Edited July 31, 2009 by J.H. Deeley

[Dan Gould]

How ironic would it be if it were Jim Rice?

[Quincy]

So anyone want to take a guess as to who the HoF juicer is???? I'm thinking it's gotta be Ricky Henderson.

A teammate with a lot of muscles. Oh well, Rickey's still the best.

[david weiss]

Since this is a jazz forum let me put this out there though it really doesn't have much to do with this. I do a lot of touring with a lot of different people. Touring can be grueling and I'm often exhausted and but usually find the energy to get through a gig on pure adrenaline when I'm tired and sometimes the music just takes me over and energizes me but this can only take a person only so far for so long. Now maybe one or two guys are bouncing off the walls full of energy because they did some coke while we are dragging our asses. Are they cheating?

I don't think this is a real fair comparison, David. Sports involve competition, and records are there to be broken. Some of which - like the all time Home Run record - are tainted by the cloud of steroids, as compared to the previous generations.

In music, that's obviously more artistic than competitive. I don't think using a form of enhancement in music affects the opinion and public standing of the artist like it does the athlete.

I know it's not fair but there is some competition involved in music especially among trumpet players, especially if they are on stage together. Now if one is tired and is not at his best and the other takes something so he is full of energy for the gig and is clearly superior on this night for all to see and maybe someone important is in the house that night and they offer him a great gig instead of you....... this is all fiction but I'm just saying that maybe it's not that far-fetched. All I'm really trying to say is a lot of people take something for an edge at a given time in their life for a variety of reasons including needing to be at their very best for what ever reason at a particularly important time in their life or career. Drugs of all sorts have fueled all sorts of industries for many years. Certainly there are some young up and comers in many fields who do coke or speed to stay up and work 20 hours days to impress their bosses and get ahead. I'm not saying it's right or anything I'm just saying I understand the impetus a little bit especially the ones who are taking it late in their career or the ones who took it to recover from an injury faster. The superstars get all the ink about this but I think Quincy has a point, if the list is released I think we will find many mediocre fringe players on the list who probably doped to have a fighting chance to make it in the big leagues and just have a couple of years of that big league money so they have a chance to lead a comfortable life. Again, I'm not saying they are right but I can see how a borderline player would be tempted especially when everyone else around him is juicing and getting called up and he is not so sure about himself. Rick Ankiel comes to mind as well. After his pitching disaster, he goes to the minor leagues and successfully becomes an outfielder and just when he is getting attention he injures himself and takes Hgh to recover from the injury faster so he can get back to the business of rebuilding his career. Should he have taken it, well probably not but I do understand the impetus.

As I said earlier, I think this has become an all or nothing proposition which really isn't fair either. Since we'll never prove anything definitively (we might have a positive test but it still doesn't tell us how long they were doing it etc) we just have to say all of them did it and and then we can say well Barry Bonds was the best hitter of the steroids era and so on. Since there are plenty of juicers who never made it out of the minors it's still an accomplishment to be the best at what you do in this era. I want to see Bonds and Ramirez in the Hall of Fame but I guess one just would have to make the distinction about the era they played in.

How ironic would it be if it were Jim Rice?

He would have lasted a couple of more years and would have been voted into the Hall much earlier.

He was one of my favorites as a kid, he had some monster years, unbelievable numbers.

[david weiss]

And equally important, in the case of Bonds' "anonymous" sample in 2003, is that the Feds got a valid search warrant before it was destroyed. The court said they were entitled to get that sample and test it but due to a screw up by the Union, they ended up getting everybody's result, as well as the list of what anonymous sample matched up with what player. This is why there are 104 names out there of which we've now heard, what, five or six?

So Bonds' result is legitimate, it was subject to a search warrant. Everything else fell into the Feds hands and has been in legal limbo ever since because they want to talk to these people about sources and the union is trying to prevent that from happening.

Another valid point Dan but we'll never agree on this one. Getting a valid search warrant for something that at that point shouldn't have existed is a little tricky to me. The prosecutor in this case has really been over the top in his pursuit of "justice" and I think has been cited a few times already for his over the top behavior. Threatening Anderson's family with jail time is a bit much for me. Yes, Bonds is probably a piece of shit but this is all a bit much. The government is spending a lot of money to make an example of Bonds to show they are doing something about this steroids thing and Bonds is the scapegoat because he was the best and because he is an asshole. Even an asshole deserves a fair shake.

Edited July 31, 2009 by david weiss

[papsrus]

Ortiz and Manny.

They both look bad on this one -- Manny because he implied his positive test this year was his first transgression; Ortiz because he took such a hard line this spring against other players who flunk tests.

Having said that, the devil's in the details, and until it is confirmed that they are both actually on the list, and until it's known what they tested positive for, I'm withholding judgment.

[zen archer]

That's certainly true. And why was this leaked now? So much happening in Boston ... and epic collapse, Dice-K mouthing off to the Japanese press, these potentially big blockbuster trades being discussed ... and I bet it was some Yankee fan lawyer who blabbed.

The best thing about this is that Ortiz wins the game with another clutch 3 run homah !......I don't think it will affect him or the team.

[Tim McG]

I understand Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer.

You know, I wonder what juice David Ortiz drinks?

[zen archer]

I understand Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer.

You know, I wonder what juice David Ortiz drinks?

Red Bull

[Tim McG]

I understand Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer.

You know, I wonder what juice David Ortiz drinks?

Red Bull

Dang.

They must be spiking it with testosterone then

Edited July 31, 2009 by GoodSpeak

[zen archer]

I understand Babe Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer.

You know, I wonder what juice David Ortiz drinks?

Red Bull

Dang.

They must be spiking it with testosterone then

He just opened a restaurant on Rt.9 in Framingham called Big Papis to great fanfare last week I wonder how this will affect business?

[WorldB3]

The thing that gets me about Ortiz is the hypocrisy of Red Sox fans, anybody with half a brain cell would see that it was so f-ing obvious. Six years with the Twins he was a marginal player at best, never hitting more than 20 home runs. Do you really think the Twins who are the smallest of small market teams in the worst stadium in MLB yet continue to be competitive year in and year out because of player evaluation would just give up on a player like Ortiz?

Seriously, what's next. Oh its ok because everybody else was doing it? Conveniently forgetting the accusations you made about Bonds and A-Rod. Must be nice. The tests are from 03 not 04 or 07? Spare me.