Baseball Steroid Thread

[Matthew]

Bonds is going down, with jail time over the horizon. As much as I dislike the Bonds persona, jail for anyone, and the stress on his/her family, is a very sad reality. It didn't have to be like this, Bonds was a great player without the steroids, and now, with all the information coming out, I just wonder if he will get into the HOF. An interesting contrast in that era is Bonds vs. Ken Griffey. I'm sure KG had a ton of people whispering in his ear and offering "stuff" to improve his game, but by all indications, Griffey turned it all down and went his own way. Now, it's Griffey who will probably be remembered as the greatest player of the era and not Bonds.

[Dan Gould]

Well I always say, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Should he serve any time, at least his kids will continue to live in the style they've grown accustomed, unlike a typical family whose breadwinner goes to jail. And for the time being, I can't discount the possibility that a jury in San Francisco could at least deadlock. He's paying a lot of money for good representation. There are going to be good days and bad days ahead. And they still have to prove that he knowingly used steroids. I could see Gregg Anderson finally testifying by insisting that he kept it secret from Bonds, and then right there you've got reasonable doubt.

Clemens, on the other hand, definitely has an orange jumpsuit in his future, and of course its all of his own doing. He insisted on testifying before Congress. He made unequivicol statements under oath. He deserves to be indicted, convicted, and sent away.

[WorldB3]

Well I always say, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Aside from lying to a grand jury which is serious stuff, taking steroids in of itself in my mind isn't a crime because there were no victims. Selig and all the owners knew about steroids but looked the other way because "chicks digged the long ball" and they were making tons of money in gate receipts. The fans had a great time being entertained. If they players were criminals then the players union, Selig, the owners, the fans and ESPECIALLY all of the writers who didn't do their due diligence and report the facts to the public that roids has been rampant in the sports since at least 1988 are all in a way accessories to the crime.

Sorry, I can't get behind the mentally of we need to punish you for something we were in denial about. If you want to stop roids and protect the kids then start testing at the high school and college level more rigorously in addition to the pro level. Making an example of Bonds and the Rocket won't do a damn thing.

Edited February 5, 2009 by WorldB3

[Aggie87]

Sorry, I can't get behind the mentally of we need to punish you for something we were in denial about. If you want to stop roids and protect the kids then start testing at the high school and college level more rigorously in addition to the pro level. Making an example of Bonds and the Rocket won't do a damn thing.

The "we" that's doing the punishing isn't the same "we" that was in denial though.

[WorldB3]

Sorry, I can't get behind the mentally of we need to punish you for something we were in denial about. If you want to stop roids and protect the kids then start testing at the high school and college level more rigorously in addition to the pro level. Making an example of Bonds and the Rocket won't do a damn thing.

The "we" that's doing the punishing isn't the same "we" that was in denial though.

Not in the sense of the government but the way the writers are approaching it and the way they will use it when these players come up for HOF voting.

If you were a sports writer in 1998 that saw both McGwire and Sosa who both had their hat sizes doubled in recent years and with acne climbing all over their backs and wrote how they were healing the country with their home run chase I don't feel you have the right to come back to me and say their records are tainted and how from a moral perspective you can't vote for them to be the hall. The fans I am little more forgiving but as a long time A's fan I can tell you with McGwire it was obvious and he was not the nicest person to the press or the fans at least during his time in Oakland.

Edited February 5, 2009 by WorldB3

[Dan Gould]

I think you're mixing up a lot of different issues here, WorldB3.

Number one, Bonds is facing trial in Federal Court for multiple counts of perjury (and related offenses) in his testimony before the BALCO Grand Jury. That is all he is charged with. There are no charges related to the act of using steroids, the charges relate to his perjury when asked about that use. I would think that we can all agree that perjury in Federal court is not a minor offense or something that should be ignored.

Number two, there's no question that the owners were happy to see increased attendance and revenue from the steroid-fueled offense of that era. The owners, most writers, the players and their union all share blame for what happened - though I would argue that until the Andro story broke, writers should have been expected to be doing big exposes of PED use or how it might be changing the game. The use itself was behind closed doors. There were whispers, especially for people like I-Rod, but what could the writers do? Things only changed when McGuire was foolish enough to leave his Andro in full view.

Third, as for the Hall of Fame, character is one of the six things voters are explicitly told to consider. One can argue the point about using PEDs and whether or not they were illegal according to baseball rules at the time, but I don't think you can argue that being convicted for perjury doesn't reflect poorly on the character of both Bonds and Clemens.

But really at this point the question is whether they will lose their freedom over their statements under oath. Getting or not getting into the Hall is something they'll ponder down the road.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Dan Gould

[WorldB3]

I think you're mixing up a lot of different issues here, WorldB3.

Number one, Bonds is facing trial in Federal Court for multiple counts of perjury (and related offenses) in his testimony before the BALCO Grand Jury. That is all he is charged with. There are no charges related to the act of using steroids, the charges relate to his perjury when asked about that use. I would think that we can all agree that perjury in Federal court is not a minor offense or something that should be ignored.

Number two, there's no question that the owners were happy to see increased attendance and revenue from the steroid-fueled offense of that era. The owners, most writers, the players and their union all share blame for what happened - though I would argue that until the Andro story broke, writers should have been expected to be doing big exposes of PED use or how it might be changing the game. The use itself was behind closed doors. There were whispers, especially for people like I-Rod, but what could the writers do? Things only changed when McGuire was foolish enough to leave his Andro in full view.

Third, as for the Hall of Fame, character is one of the six things voters are explicitly told to consider. One can argue the point about using PEDs and whether or not they were illegal according to baseball rules at the time, but I don't think you can argue that being convicted for perjury doesn't reflect poorly on the character of both Bonds and Clemens.

But really at this point the question is whether they will lose their freedom over their statements under oath. Getting or not getting into the Hall is something they'll ponder down the road.

I was a bit all over the place, good post.

As far as the character thing its hard to say who was using and who wasn't. As far as the grand jury you are correct.

[Dan Gould]

Looks like Bonds had a pretty good day in court:

The judge presiding over Barry Bonds’s perjury trial said on Thursday that she would likely throw out several pieces of critical evidence that tie Bonds to the use of performance-enhancing drugs.

At a pretrial hearing here, United States District Judge Susan Illston heard arguments from Bonds’s lawyers and the government about the admissibility of several pieces of evidence.

Illston indicated that she would likely not allow the government to present the results from three positive tests for steroids in 2000 and 2001 as evidence at the trial. Those results came from documents seized at the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative in 2003. The judge indicated that the government needed someone to state that the test samples came directly from Bonds.

More here.

[WorldB3]

Looks like Bonds had a pretty good day in court:

More here.

Despite how any of us feel about Bonds the tests were given under an agreement of confidentiality and should be thrown out.

[Dan Gould]

Looks like Bonds had a pretty good day in court:

More here.

Despite how any of us feel about Bonds the tests were given under an agreement of confidentiality and should be thrown out.

Different tests. These are the BALCO tests. The Judge said without someone to testify (that is, Gregg Anderson) this is Barry Bonds piss, its hearsay. Gregg Anderson better never want for anything for the rest of his life for the shit he's done for him.

[Teasing the Korean]

Your tax dollars at work.

Talk about a non-issue.

[Chalupa]

Baseball star Alex Rodriguez tested positive for steroids in 2003, sources tell Sports Illustrated

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/base...oids/index.html

[Dan Gould]

Wow. I had no idea there were steroids that built lean muscle without bulking up. This not only is a huge thing for A-Rod (much bigger than whether Torre called him A-Fraud) but this really opens up the universe of possible steroid users from the McGuires, Bonds, Clemens, Sosas and Pudges of MLB. When Canseco claimed that A-Rod used, my reaction was that A-Rod was a naturally strong, lean muscled guy - where is the evidence? This really changes things.

[Quincy]

Wow. I had no idea there were steroids that built lean muscle without bulking up. This not only is a huge thing for A-Rod (much bigger than whether Torre called him A-Fraud) but this really opens up the universe of possible steroid users from the McGuires, Bonds, Clemens, Sosas and Pudges of MLB. When Canseco claimed that A-Rod used, my reaction was that A-Rod was a naturally strong, lean muscled guy - where is the evidence? This really changes things.

It's the exercises you do when on steroids, not really the 'roids as far as how bulky you get. Having watched Alex all those years in Seattle and then seeing the larger version appear in All-Star games for Texas and NY after that I thought it was strange that so many people declared him the "clean" successor to the HR record. Hard to say how much this helps McGwire getting in the Hall as so much of the backlash against him is based on his performance in front of Congress.

[Dan Gould]

Wow. I had no idea there were steroids that built lean muscle without bulking up. This not only is a huge thing for A-Rod (much bigger than whether Torre called him A-Fraud) but this really opens up the universe of possible steroid users from the McGuires, Bonds, Clemens, Sosas and Pudges of MLB. When Canseco claimed that A-Rod used, my reaction was that A-Rod was a naturally strong, lean muscled guy - where is the evidence? This really changes things.

It's the exercises you do when on steroids, not really the 'roids as far as how bulky you get.

That's what I thought, but from the article:

Primobolan, which is also known by the chemical name methenolone, is an injected or orally administered drug that is more expensive than most steroids. (A 12-week cycle can cost $500.) It improves strength and maintains lean muscle with minimal bulk development, according to steroid experts, and has relatively few side effects. Kirk Radomski, the former New York Mets clubhouse employee who in 2007 pleaded guilty to illegal distribution of steroids to numerous major league players, described in his recent book, Bases Loaded: The Inside Story of the Steroid Era in Baseball by the Central Figure in the Mitchell Report, how players increasingly turned to drugs such as Primobolan in 2003, in part to avoid detection in testing. Primobolan is detectable for a shorter period of time than the steroid previously favored by players, Deca-Durabolin.

I think most people know Deca as the weight lifters drug of choice, but apparently it does matter what you take, as well as the exercises you do (which I always knew to be high weight, few reps for bulk and lower weight, more reps for definition, but when you're serious enough to be on steroids and spend hours in the gym, who knows?).

[Matthew]

I really am amazed about the ARod report, he was supposed to be the "good one" who would break Bonds home run record, and thus make it clean again. That Texas team will go down in history as one of the most tainted teams ever. Who would have thought that Canseco would be so right about so many players? Selig should resign, this disgrace happened while he put blinders on and pretended that nothing was going wrong. Well, I guess 18 million buys a lot of silence.

[T.D.]

I can't say I'm surprised. Wouldn't be surprised to hear that any MLB player was on the juice. And it's always been clear that MLB's "testing program" is a joke (that's a big reason why the IOC doesn't want the sport in the Olympics, not that any pros would be likely to subject themselves to Olympic-level dope testing).

But I think this info won't go any further. Quoting from the SI story (near the end):

Arguments before an 11-judge panel in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in Pasadena are ongoing between government prosecutors and the players' association over the government's seizure of the test results from the Long Beach lab. The agents who collected the material had a search warrant only for the results for the 10 BALCO-linked players. Attorneys from the union argue that the government is entitled only to the results for those players, not the entire list. If the court sides with the union, federal authorities may be barred from using the positive survey test results of non-BALCO players such as Rodriguez in their ongoing investigations.

Seems to me the court will side with the union here. But A-Hole-Rod's gonna get raked over the coals by the NY tabloids.

[Dan Gould]

I don't think there's any question that A-Rod won't be in legal jeapardy here. But the damage to his reputation, and for Yankee fans, the possible effects of the upcoming tabloid hounding (not to mention the possibility that A-Rod doesn't respond well to the way the crowds might treat him), will be significant. I also think there's a significant possibility that Gene Orza will be sacrificed - its really bad PR to have the number two in the union calling A-Rod to warn him about his September 2004 'random' drug test. Makes it pretty likely that Orza, working off of the list of "anonymous" test results, made some effort at least to protect the biggest stars from getting caught when the results would be public. Who knows how many others of the 104 positives that he called? I'm sure it was mostly the prominent cheaters.

[WorldB3]

Wow. I had no idea there were steroids that built lean muscle without bulking up. This not only is a huge thing for A-Rod (much bigger than whether Torre called him A-Fraud) but this really opens up the universe of possible steroid users from the McGuires, Bonds, Clemens, Sosas and Pudges of MLB. When Canseco claimed that A-Rod used, my reaction was that A-Rod was a naturally strong, lean muscled guy - where is the evidence? This really changes things.

Are you joking? Sure for some roids but did you really think it was only bulky power hitters? Look at cycling. What is the main reason they do it? Recovery! where are the main muscles that are used in cycling and also in pitching? I would guess half the bullpens in MLB have used something and I would be more surprised is Cal Ripken didn't dip during his all time games played record then if he did. It also helps with eyesight which means even a lean muscle guy like ARod would benefit when seeing the break/rotation on a 90 mph slider.

Back to the HOF you can't pick and choose who you think or know who did what, you either throw out the Roids argument or nobody from the whole era gets into the hall.

[T.D.]

Are you joking? Sure for some roids but did you really think it was only bulky power hitters? Look at cycling. What is the main reason they do it? Recovery! where are the main muscles that are used in cycling and also in pitching? I would guess half the bullpens in MLB have used something and I would be more surprised is Cal Ripken didn't dip during his all time games played record then if he did. It also helps with eyesight which means even a lean muscle guy like ARod would benefit when seeing the break/rotation on a 90 mph slider. ...

Agreed, except I thought that HGH was the substance that improved vision. At least according to the famous article by the age-group cyclist who experimented with PEDs. (Great article, btw.)

Edited February 7, 2009 by T.D.

[Dan Gould]

You need recovery after six hours on a bike! And beyond that, cyclers used because of how it effected their performance, too. And recovery in baseball came from amphetamines, because of the day-after-day marathon of the season, not because of the stress of the competition. Were their non-bulked up steroid users? Yeah, I am sure there were. But it was Bonds, Sosa, McGuire who bulked up and shattered records. That is the shame of the steroid era, the setting of records - or in Clemens' case, the extension of careers from maybe-a-Hall-of-Famer to no-doubt-about-it-status. When I hear that Fernando Vina used, I say so what? He didn't do shit on or off the juice.

Until now, it was the guys who bulked up who had used and transformed their careers, they were the ones with the targets on their backs. At this point, I don't think any player from that era should be elected to the Hall anymore.

[Tim McG]

Baseball star Alex Rodriguez tested positive for steroids in 2003, sources tell Sports Illustrated

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/base...oids/index.html

Well....so much for the theory Bonds was the only one, eh?

Given this little tid-bit of news, I would hazard to guess hundreds of other baseball players juiced up.

So, now what....ban all of them? Expunge the MLB record of all their accomplishments? Asterisk every record? This is getting ridiculous.

I said this Bonds witch hunt would come to no good and I was right.

[Matthew]

I must admit that I'm finding the ARod finding very depressing, I mean, what pitching/hitting record from the past twenty years is worth anything? A whole generation of players is under a cloud, and there is no way to get around that. Just a sad, depressing development.

[Tim McG]

I must admit that I'm finding the ARod finding very depressing, I mean, what pitching/hitting record from the past twenty years is worth anything? A whole generation of players is under a cloud, and there is no way to get around that. Just a sad, depressing development.

I agree.

But I also think that this lust for Bonds' head on a platter is the sole reason why....brought on far more than any of the Bonds haters expected. I said as much, too.

Edited February 8, 2009 by GoodSpeak

[Aggie87]

Well....so much for the theory Bonds was the only one, eh?

Who's theory was that? Nobody's on this board, unless you can show otherwise.

Given this little tid-bit of news, I would hazard to guess hundreds of other baseball players juiced up.

Duh.

So, now what....ban all of them? Expunge the MLB record of all their accomplishments? Asterisk every record? This is getting ridiculous.

I said this Bonds witch hunt would come to no good and I was right.

You weren't right at all - if it ultimately helps to clean up the sport, it's been worthwhile.

The only "hurt" ones are kids who may have looked up to these cheaters.