Baseball Steroid Thread

[T.D.]

As I expected, looks like it's going to wind up inconclusive.

As Jon Heyman writes at the SI.com blog site:

By the end of the hearing there still seemed to be a split of opinions: The Democrats believed McNamee, the Republicans did not. The hearing may not sway anyone to one side or the other. The most damaging evidence was gathered earlier, when Clemens' friend and former workout partner, Pettitte, and Knoblauch affirmed what McNamee said. And especially when Pettitte submitted an affidavit saying that Clemens admitted to HGH use back in 1999 or 2000. It doesn't appear that anything was proved today, which means that further investigation is needed.

[Dan Gould]

I actually disagree because no one had the devastating information from Pettitte and Clemens nonsensical defense. A lot of people should be swayed, or reinforced, that Clemens used based on his independent testimony that corraborates McNamee and destroys Clemens credibility.

I'd also be very interested to see what else is in all of the committee material when it is released and the press starts going through it. I'll bet dollars to donuts there is more damning testimony from Pettitte, for one. I love how Clemens' attorneys act so calm and cool and convinced when they had to know this was a very bad day, filled with bad moments for their side:

Everything Pettitte and his wife testified to and especially Elijah Cummings declaration that Pettitte is the tie-breaker.

The information about the abcess, and how an independent expert, with no information about the patient, came to the conclusion that it wasn't a reaction to a B-12 shot but a reaction to Winstrol being injected poorly.

The information about the nanny and how Clemens interrogated her - and the fact that she said that the family stayed at Canseco's that night. Plus the fact that the golf course Clemens played at was adjacent to Canseco's home. Even Clemens ultimately budged and said he might have been there!

I'd say the bottom line is that the very best outcome for Clemens is a decision not to pursue a perjury charge, or managing to establish reasonable doubt at trial; and that if McNamee doesn't get the Libel case thrown out, he'll spend a lot of money for a not guilty verdict.

I have to wonder how much this is going to affect the Yankees and Pettitte especially.

[Dan Gould]

Well, the answer about Jim Murray is that he gave some variation of "I don't remember" almost as often as Ronald Reagan did in the Iran-Contra interview. Of course, that is the safe play if you don't want to do anything to hurt your client. I tend to believe Murray is lying through his teeth but we'll never know. One thing is for sure he does know which side of his bread is buttered.

[Dan Gould]

Just looked over the nanny's interview transcript, and I'd say there is one statement that suggest witness tampering, just as Waxman wondered:

He says, ____, you know the reason you don't remember the party is because I wasn't there.

Oops.

[Tim McG]

Well, the answer about Jim Murray is that he gave some variation of "I don't remember" almost as often as Ronald Reagan did in the Iran-Contra interview. Of course, that is the safe play if you don't want to do anything to hurt your client. I tend to believe Murray is lying through his teeth but we'll never know. One thing is for sure he does know which side of his bread is buttered.

Actually, Ronnie Ray-gun said, "I don't recall" but I guess it's pretty much the same thing.

[zen archer]

Just looked over the nanny's interview transcript, and I'd say there is one statement that suggest witness tampering, just as Waxman wondered:

He says, ____, you know the reason you don't remember the party is because I wasn't there.

Oops.

I'm confused about the nanny , i watched the first half or at least a good chunk of it . Did the nanny say he was at the party ?

On the late news last night they were still saying that mcnamee was lying about that .

[Larry Kart]

Just looked over the nanny's interview transcript, and I'd say there is one statement that suggest witness tampering, just as Waxman wondered:

He says, ____, you know the reason you don't remember the party is because I wasn't there.

Oops.

I'm confused about the nanny , i watched the first half or at least a good chunk of it . Did the nanny say he was at the party ?

On the late news last night they were still saying that mcnamee was lying about that .

Nanny's account clashes with Clemens' says the headline

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...sp&c_id=mlb

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Nanny's account clashes with Clemens' says the headline

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...sp&c_id=mlb

WASHINGTON -- The bikini-wearing nanny who looked after Roger Clemens' young children a decade ago was at the center of attention on Capitol Hill...

dang! shoulda watched that hearing after all!!

[Dan Gould]

The newest version of Nanny-Gate!

I thought the entire line of questioning was ridiculous and the tendency by the GOP side to cast aspersions on McNamee was ridiculous, for the simple fact that it was never material to the Mitchell Report and McNamee's allegations. He only said that Clemens attended (its now clear from the Nanny and Clemens own testimony that he was at Canseco's house, at the minimum) and that he saw Clemens, Canseco and another man leave the room together.

The implication was that this was the moment that Clemens spoke to Canseco about starting a steroid regimen, or that he got the drugs at that moment, because it was a few days later he asked McNamee for help in injecting himself. But McNamee didn't claim to be privy to the conversation and its really a minor, trivial part of the Report. Its all implications and suppositions that aren't material to the important claims.

But there were some very telling moments in that exchange, and it starts with Clemens protest - "I was just tryin' to do y'all a favor" and find this lady.

A favor? A favor???

Can there be any clearer demonstration of Clemens sense of entitlement, of being a coddled, overpaid celebrity with no obligations other than those he deems worthy of his "favor"? When Congress tells you, what is her name? How can we contact her? it ain't a request and its not a favor when you comply.

Clemens character was laid bare for all to see in that moment.

And wasn't it interesting that Hardin claimed that Clemens only said, "these folks are going to ask you some questions, just tell the truth" when the woman herself describes Clemens asking these questions, and actually telling her why she doesn't remember the party by giving her his self-serving side of events? It may not fall into witness tampering that is actionable but it surely teeters on the edge.

[Dan Gould]

Dan, can you or anyone else explain why the questioning seems to be along party lines here?

It can't simply be because Clemens is a good Republican.

The answer finally dawned on me today:

The Democratic chairman and Rusty Hardin have been going at it since last week. That gave all the clues necessary to the minority members of whose side they should be on. If the Chairman is attacking Clemens, then the Republicans have to defend him.

Too bad that in order to do that, they had to check their brains at the door (if they had any).

[Tim McG]

Dan, can you or anyone else explain why the questioning seems to be along party lines here?

It can't simply be because Clemens is a good Republican.

The answer finally dawned on me today:

The Democratic chairman and Rusty Hardin have been going at it since last week. That gave all the clues necessary to the minority members of whose side they should be on. If the Chairman is attacking Clemens, then the Republicans have to defend him.

Too bad that in order to do that, they had to check their brains at the door (if they had any).

Dan Burton-R is Clemens' biggest supporter, apparently.

The party of morality speaks!

Edited February 14, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

The next Nanny-gate!

In today's SF Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl.....;/MNPJTTNH4.DTL

Here's the dumbest thing to come out of this whole "investigation":

Words of the day

Unexpected phrases

Peach bikini: What Roger Clemens' nanny was wearing at Jose Canseco's house party as she chased a toddler headed toward the pool, according to Brian McNamee. Unresolved: Was Clemens at the party?

Palpable mass: Description used for abscess that appeared on Clemens' buttocks after an injection. Unresolved: Was the source a vitamin shot or a steroids shot?

Adjectives of note

Disgusting: Used by Rep. Dan Burton, R.-Ind., to describe McNamee's history of lying about steroid use.

Spectacular: Used by Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., to describe the sort of lying that either McNamee or Clemens engaged in.

Probably the last thing you thought you'd hear a seven-time Cy Young Award winner say to a panel of lawmakers

"Prior to him injecting my wife, we had no discussion about HGH. We never discussed HGH in detail."

Oh my God....can it get any more trivial and dumb? This is just getting too stupid.

[ghost of miles]

Man, what with this, and the Kelvin Sampson uproar here at IU, and the revelation that the Patriots had been taping games since 2000...

[rachel]

Dan Burton named his dog after himself. (Danbo)

Who does that?

He continues to be a disgusting embarrassment to Indiana.

edited to respond to Ghost: I've been over IU basketball for years now because of the ridiculous idolization of Bobby Knight in the past. Dan Burton/Bobby Knight: Twin sons of different mothers. But anyway... they need to fire Sampson like, yesterday.

Edited February 14, 2008 by rachel

[ghost of miles]

Dan Burton named his dog after himself. (Danbo)

Who does that?

He continues to be a disgusting embarrassment to Indiana.

Ol' A-Bomb Burton? Why didn't we drop HIM on Baghdad?

[trane_fanatic]

I really hope this is not true. If it is, this whole thing is a sham.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080214/ap_on_..._clemens_pardon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

McNamee's lawyer predicts Clemens pardon By RONALD BLUM, AP Baseball Writer

23 minutes ago

One of Brian McNamee's lawyers predicted Roger Clemens will be pardoned by President Bush, saying some Republicans treated his client harshly because of the pitcher's friendship with the Bush family.

Lawyer Richard Emery made the claims Thursday, a day after a congressional hearing broke down along party lines. Many Democrats were skeptical of Clemens' denials he used performance-enhancing drugs and Republicans questioned the character of McNamee, the personal trainer who made the accusations against the seven-time Cy Young Award winner.

"It would be the easiest thing in the world for George W. Bush, given the corrupt proclivities of his administration, to say Roger Clemens is an American hero, Roger Clemens helped children," Emery said in a telephone interview. "It's my belief they have some reason to believe they can get a pardon."

During Wednesday's session before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Clemens repeated his denials under oath, which could lead to criminal charges if federal prosecutors conclude he made false statements or obstructed Congress.

"I'm not aware of Mr. Clemens having been charged with anything," White House deputy press secretary Tony Fratto said after being told of Emery's remarks.

Emery cited Bush's decision last year to commute the 2 1/2-year prison sentence of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, his vice president's former top aide. Libby was convicted in the case of the leaked identity of a CIA operative.

During the hearing, Clemens cited his friendship with Bush's father, President George H.W. Bush, a baseball fan who regularly attends Houston Astros' games. Clemens said he was on a recent hunting trip when the elder Bush called with words of support.

"When all this happened, the former president of the United States found me in a deer blind in south Texas and expressed his concerns that this was unbelievable, and stay strong and hold your head up high," Clemens testified.

Emery said as he thought about the testimony overnight, Clemens' reference to the call from the elder Bush convinced him the questioning by Republicans was a concerted effort.

"All the pieces fell into place given his friendship, his personal friendship with the Bush family," Emery said. "They have some belief that even if he's prosecuted, he will never have to serve jail time or face a trail. This is a charade we're going through."

IRS Special Agent Jeff Novitzky attended the hearing and watched from the second row. Novitzky has been a part of the BALCO prosecution team that secured an indictment against Barry Bonds on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice. Bonds testified before a grand jury in 2003 and denied that he knowingly used performance-enhancing drugs.

Emery praised Clemens' lawyers, Rusty Hardin and Lanny Breuer, as knowledgeable and said the prospect of a pardon was the only explanation that allowed the pitcher to repeat his denials under oath.

"It's the only reason lawyers worth their salt would allow their client to run into the buzzsaw of Jeff Novitzky and the potential prosecution, tampering and lying to a federal official," Emery said.

Joe Householder, Clemens' spokesman, said he would attempt to reach Hardin or Breuer for comment. Republicans on the committee did not immediately return telephone calls.

Emery had harsh criticism for Republican Reps. Dan Burton of Indiana, Virginia Foxx of North Carolina, Darrell Issa of California and Christopher Shays of Connecticut. Shays called McNamee a "drug dealer" and Burton accused McNamee of telling "lie after lie after lie after lie."

"It was disgusting and despicable behavior," Emery said. "It was clear to me they were carrying someone's water."

Rep. Elijah Cummings, a Maryland Democrat who said he believed McNamee, was concerned about the apparent Republican-Democratic divide.

"Of all the things to become partisan over, this was the wrong one," Cummings said. "What we needed to be doing was to be in search of truth. And I think that when you are truly in search of truth, we need to put the partisan shoes at the door and walk in without them."

___

AP White House Correspondent Terence Hunt and AP Sports Writer Joseph White contributed to this report.

Edited February 14, 2008 by trane_fanatic

[Dan Gould]

There's one problem with the theory - there isn't a lot of time left in Dubya's term for the Justice Department to decide to pursue the case, get their ducks in a row, secure DNA sample from Clemens, get it tested, get him indicted, and get him convicted before January 20th, 2009.

In the meantime, Clemens will perpetually protest his innocence, fight the government at every step (lengthening the process before a trial even starts), and thus keep the case in play past the time GW is in office. I realize that a President can order a pardon without criminal charges or a conviction (Ford did it with Nixon, after all) but do you think that in the middle of this, Clemens would accept a pardon? Acceptance of a pardon constitutes acceptance of guilt in this situation. Clemens would never allow it, except maybe, maybe, after a jury found him guilty - and as I've explained, a jury trial is unlikely to get under way before Bush leaves office.

Up to this point, I thought that Clemens' legal advice and the performance his lawyers has been deplorable, while McNamee's lawyers have been extremely good. This is a major, major misstep on their part and hopefully for their sake, it will die in a single 24 hour news cycle. At worst they should have pointed out the fact that the chairman was ticked off at Clemens' attorneys and that the Republicans took their cue from that, and that who knows, maybe they think that Bush will pardon him? They should never have stated it so strongly. It was a stupid action to take.

[7/4]

I really hope this is not true. If it is, this whole thing is a sham.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

McNamee's lawyer predicts Clemens pardon By RONALD BLUM, AP Baseball Writer

23 minutes ago

One of Brian McNamee's lawyers predicted Roger Clemens will be pardoned by President Bush, saying some Republicans treated his client harshly because of the pitcher's friendship with the Bush family.

Of course it's a "sham".

IT'S POLITICS.

[Tim McG]

If it is legit, then what I have been saying all along about this being a pretend investigation is true.

[Dan Gould]

Two different looks at Clemens' body language, one verdict: Guilty, guilty guilty!

Expert on body language says Roger Clemens had something to hide

BY CORKY SIEMASZKO

DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Thursday, February 14th 2008, 4:00 AM

Roger Clemens insisted before a congressional panel on Wednesday that he never took steroids, but his body language suggested he had something to hide.

That was the verdict of Joseph Tecce, a psychology professor at Boston College and an expert on body language.

"Clemens showed the same head movements over and over again," Tecce said. "I call it gaze aversion. He looked absolutely fearful of those who were questioning him. And this is a tough hombre who throws the ball 100 mph."

The Cy Young Award winner's apparent nervousness spread to his lawyers, who "had had impulse control problems.

"His two lawyers interrupted the proceedings a couple times," said Tecce. "No one in the McNamee camp interrupted anybody."

Clemens also appeared to have trouble controlling the pitch of his voice as he testified, unlike his accuser Brian McNamee, Tecce said.

"McNamee was cool and talked in a monotone even when he was being questioned harshly," he said. "Clemens' voice inflections went up and down. It says he's upset. It says he has more to lose."

Also, McNamee gave "single word answers" while "Clemens gave very lengthy answers," Tecce said.

"It is an earmark of lying when people do not answer a question directly," he said.

"You get the feeling Roger Clemens is trying to throw up a smoke screen and McNamee wants clarity, specificity and directness."

Clemens more nervous than trainer

Facial expressions expert analyzes both witnesses

Posted: Wednesday February 13, 2008 10:13PM; Updated: Wednesday February 13, 2008 10:13PM

Roger Clemens' lips were pressed together tight, the corners turned slightly upward, his mouth pulled wide.

"There's only one interpretation," said Dan Hill, an expert in analyzing facial expressions, "and that's fear."

Hill doesn't profess to be able to declare with certainty whether the star pitcher or his former trainer, Brian McNamee, was telling the truth during their testimony before Congress on Wednesday. But after viewing video clips of portions of the hearings, Hill concluded Clemens seemed more nervous than McNamee.

"To be fair, it could be fear of being unfairly stripped of the Hall of Fame," Hill said in a phone interview. "He also could be lying."

Hill is the president of Sensory Logic, a Minnesota-based marketing research company that analyzes consumers' facial expressions. He said Clemens showed signs of anger and disgust, pushing his lower lip and chin upward and pressing his lips together.

"It's the same body language as when he prepares to overwhelm a batter," Hill said. "He's a bulldog trying to will himself through the testimony."

But Clemens also repeatedly licked his lips and looked down.

"That's all signs of avoidance, possibly shame, absolutely nervousness," Hill said.

He thought Clemens seemed particularly anxious, gulping and licking his lips, when questioned about the testimony of former teammate Andy Pettitte's wife. In her affidavit, she said her husband told her about a conversation he had with Clemens in 1999 or 2000 during which the seven-time Cy Young winner admitted using human growth hormone.

McNamee may have looked "beaten down" as he was drilled by members of Congress, Hill said, but he appeared more confident than Clemens.

"He does not look like he's broken or wavering or nervous," Hill said.

[Tim McG]

I wonder what the tea leaves expert had to say.

[Jim Alfredson]

Shall I move this to the political forum?

The whole thing is a circus.

[Aggie87]

Shall I move this to the political forum?

The whole thing is a circus.

I don't think the topic inherently belongs in the Political forum, personally.

[Tim McG]

The whole thing is a circus.

Yes it is, Jim....a total circus.

[Tim McG]

Shall I move this to the political forum?

The whole thing is a circus.

I don't think the topic inherently belongs in the Political forum, personally.

I agree.

It belongs in the bullshit forum.