Baseball Steroid Thread

[Dan Gould]

I'm so sick of seeing this crap on Sportscenter. It needs its own show so I can watch my damn sports highlights in peace. I do not care who did steroids or who lied or if Roger and Andy are still pals.

If its any consolation, Jon, the saturation coverage will be over after Thursday, though you will have to deal with even more crap between now and then. But afterwards it will all settle down - until the lab results come back or Clemens gets indicted.

[WorldB3]

I'm so sick of seeing this crap on Sportscenter. It needs its own show so I can watch my damn sports highlights in peace. I do not care who did steroids or who lied or if Roger and Andy are still pals.

You haven't been able to watch Sports Center highlights in peace for about the last five years. If it has become all corporate tie in b.s and the flag ship station for teams only from NY and specifically Boston.

After years of hearing from Joe Six Pack (not the informed people on this site) that Barry Bonds was the only person ever to use roids I have to say I am enjoying seeing the Rocket get called out.

[Tim McG]

Geez, Aggie.

This isn't a good vs bad argument.

It is a pointless argument vs a ridiculous argument.

No one is suggesting steroids or HGHs aren't bad for you, OK? I seriously cannot comprehend why you refuse to see the risks athletes take at certain harm to thier own bodies isn't somehow equatable or, at the very least, a hypocritcal indication of how athletes already sacrifice their bodies.

Why, I ask, is it so damned important what it is these athletes do to harm their bodies in order to perform their duties? Like steroids should be the only focus here? How many times do athletes play hurt, Aggie? Ask yourself [please], is it so important we stop steroids or is it more important to understand then stop/reduce the harm these guys do to themselves in order to remain employed?

Ignore Dan.

See the big picture.

Huh?? It's important to stop steroids, period. Everyone knows and understands they are harmful - including the ball players. You seriously think they don't already understand that, and that we all need to become more educated about steroids before we actually *DO* something about them??

No, Aggie.

What I am saying is the uproar over steroids and HGHs is hypocritical if we aren't also willing to look at then curb the wanton physical abuse of athletes, and on a wholesale basis, to keep them in the game. That is far and away more insidious and permanently harmful to the athlete than any steroid or HGH ever used. And you can bet the ranch on it.

Please read this first before responding, OK?

I'd really apprecaite it, Aggie.

Don't you get it, Aggie?

Pitchers play with pain, and then they blow out their elbow, and Tommy John surgery is painful, and it really should be as illegal as steroids because it helps you pitch better and players go through so much to stay in the game. Its all just so bad, and so wrong. We shouldn't let steroids pervert the game, and we shouldn't let modern medicine extend careers. Its wrong, wrong, wrong, and its hypocritical if you can't understand that.

C'mon, Dan.

Surgery is not the same as drugs....no comparison. None.

And you are aware, I hope, that there are other players on the field playing hurt and having surgery done besides the pitcher.

Smokescreen....

[Tim McG]

BTW....Pettit and Clemens were excused today from testifying any further.

Now isn't that interesting.

Hm.

[Dan Gould]

BTW....Pettit and Clemens were excused today from testifying any further.

Now isn't that interesting.

Hm.

Pettitte, Knoblauch and Radomski are excused.

[Dan Gould]

Stick a fork in him, he's done.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Roger Clemens told Yankees teammate Andy Pettitte nearly 10 years ago that he used human growth hormone, Pettitte said in a sworn affidavit to Congress, The Associated Press learned Tuesday.

Pettitte disclosed the conversation to the congressional committee holding Wednesday's hearings on drug use in baseball, a person familiar with the affidavit said. The person spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity because the document had not been made public.

According to the person familiar with the affidavit, who said it was signed Friday night, Pettitte also said Clemens backtracked when the subject of HGH came up again in conversation in 2005, before the same House committee held the first hearing on steroids in baseball.

Pettitte said in the affidavit that he asked Clemens in 2005 what he would do if asked by the media about HGH, given his admission years earlier. According to the account told to the AP, the affidavit said Clemens responded by saying Pettitte misunderstood the previous exchange in 1999 or 2000 and that, in fact, Clemens had been talking about HGH use by his wife in the original conversation.

The existence of the affidavit first was reported by The New York Times.

Number one, note that this is totally separate from the question of what Pettitte might have said to McNamee in 2002. And number two, let's think about Clemens attempt to weasel out in 2005. "I was talking about my wife". Yeah, we're supposed to believe that you didn't use HGH but your wife did. Who's idea was it? Did you tell her, "honey, I don't use it, but Mac thinks this stuff will help you."

What a sad pathetic joke. I now suspect that Clemens will be asserting his fifth amendment rights before tomorrow's hearing is over.

[Dan Gould]

Back to what matters, steroids in baseball, and specifically, PEDs and Roger Clemens. I thought Clemens was in trouble last night, but now the Times shows that he is in really deep doo-doo.

Damaging Information Said to Await Clemens

By DUFF WILSON and MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT

Published: February 13, 2008

WASHINGTON — Roger Clemens will be confronted with a new and damaging affidavit from Andy Pettitte when he appears before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform on Wednesday to testify about allegations that he used performance-enhancing drugs, two lawyers familiar with the matter said late Tuesday.

Clemens will also be asked about corroborating information that committee staff members developed on their own that ties Clemens to such drugs, the lawyers said. That information, they said, stands separate and apart from the assertions made about Clemens by his former personal trainer, Brian McNamee, who contends that he injected Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone from 1998 to 2001.

The two lawyers familiar with what may be confronting Clemens at the hearing spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. They would not reveal details of the new Pettitte affidavit or of the new information obtained apart from McNamee’s assertions.

“The committee is not messing around and has other damaging evidence against Roger,” one of the lawyers said.

The other lawyer said, “Andy said enough to really hurt Roger.”

Furthermore, apparently Pettitte executed an afidavit that was delivered Friday night, in lieu of testifying in public, and its that affidavit that says that Clemens told Andy in 1999 or 2000 that he used HGH, then covered up in 2005 by blaming his wife.

I think it would be truly hysterical if Clemens defense today amounts to "Congressman, Andy has notoriously poor listening comprehension skills."

So, don't forget to buy a shirt! Be the first on your block to own one!

[papsrus]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Roger Clemens told Yankees teammate Andy Pettitte nearly 10 years ago that he used human growth hormone, Pettitte said in a sworn affidavit to Congress, The Associated Press learned Tuesday.

That AP story was much less specific when it first moved last night. It initially said something like Clemens "talked to Pettitte about HGH" ... much more nebulous phrasing, and I have to wonder why AP wasn't more specific in its original story.

I thought it was because that's all they had. I figured whoever leaked it wanted just enough ambiguity out there to invite Clemens into a perjury trap. Congress would let Clemens give his side of that story today, then confront him with more incriminating details from the Pettitte affidavit.

Nice that he's hanging his wife out to dry.

The guy is toast, IMO. He'd better start focusing on staying out of jail at this point.

[Aggie87]

Pettitte is admitting to additional HGH usage, this time in 2004.

Looks like he's trying to come even more clean on the issue, for whatever it's worth.

Pettitte admits using HGH in '04

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Andy Pettitte admitted using human growth hormone in 2004, saying it was supplied to him that time by his father, The Associated Press learned Wednesday.

After the Mitchell Report was released, Pettitte said he used HGH for two days in 2002 while with the New York Yankees. Last week, the pitcher was asked to discuss drug use in both a deposition and affidavit before a congressional committee.

"In that affidavit, Andy informed the committee that in addition to the two shots a day of HGH he took for two days in 2002, he also took HGH for a one-day period in 2004, shortly preceding season-ending elbow surgery," his lawyers, Jay Reisinger, Thomas Farrell and James Sharp, said in a statement.

Pettitte pitched for his hometown Houston Astros from 2004-06 before rejoining the Yankees last year.

Excused from testifying before a congressional committee focusing on Roger Clemens' alleged use of performance-enhancing drugs, Pettitte issued a statement through his lawyer minutes before the session began.

"Andy had not previously mentioned this usage because he acquired the substance from his father, who had obtained it without Andy's knowledge in an effort to overcome his very serious health problems, which have included serious cardiac conditions," the statement said. "Andy did not want his father, whom he deeply respects and loves, to be brought into this matter and sought to shield him from publicity. In both cases, Andy used HGH in a misguided effort to recover from injury."

The lawyers said Pettitte would speak with reporters when he arrives at spring training with the Yankees. Pitchers and catchers were due to report Thursday, but it was unclear whether Pettitte would be on time.

[Dan Gould]

On the basis of what the chair just said about Clemens, Pettitte and Pettitte's wife, it is completely over for Clemens. There is no way to get around it:

He told Pettitte in 1999-2000, and Pettitte told his wife at the same time. That's corrobarative, and devastating.

Beyond the fact that Andy's wife offers contemporaneous statements about Clemens use, if Clemens and McNamee agree that the injections of Debbie took place in 2003, it is impossible for Clemens to have told Andy in the earlier time period that he was referring to his wife.

This is completely devastating to Clemens' claim of never using. Period. It doesn't prove that McNamee has told the truth as far as steroids go, but I am pretty sure he told Mitchell about HGH injections in the same period that Pettitte says Clemens told him he used, so that is corraborative as well.

The last disposative bit of evidence will be the lab results of the evidence McNamee qualified - that is, disposative as to McNamee's honesty and Clemens lawsuit against him.

But I would say that right now, the FBI agent could slap the cuffs on Roger if he wanted to. Based on nothing that McNamee has said, Clemens has already committed perjury.

[Dan Gould]

Wow, Clemens has no clue at all. He just can't see how Pettitte himself (with his wife) has proven him a user, and I suspect a serial perjurer by the time this hearing is over.

But its so typical for him. I am sure that he really believes he didn't do it - but the evidence on HGH is overwhelming and devastating. There's no possible way to get around Pettitte. Plus, it will only get worse now because Pettitte is going to get plenty of questions. He has to keep confirming the info, because he did it under oath. The NY press will ask: are you sure? You have no doubts? And you know Pettitte will confirm it.

Its really kind of sad because you're clearly seeing the end of a friendship (whether it was as close as portrayed or not).

[Dan Gould]

Let me just say that at this moment, I love Elijah Cummings.

Is he a trained lawyer? Was he a prosecutor? Anyway ...

[Dan Gould]

I feel like I'm blogging here ... but Clemens completely ignored the question about Andy's wife, and Cummings (still loving him though) missed the chance to nail his ass by pointing out directly that its not a matter of Andy "misremembering" because its a contemporaneous statement to his wife about the conversation. How could he get it wrong when he just had the conversation? Contemporaneous statements support the credibility of the witness, if its confirmed by the second person.

Ah, but now he's nailing him on the timeline.

[Dan Gould]

Oh shit he just ran out of time. Someone has to get back into that line of questioning.

and I'm sure they will.

[Dan Gould]

So apparently one physician looked at the evidence, looked at the MRI and concluded the abssess on the butt was more likely resulted from a Winstrol injection rather than B-12.

And now they are submitting their own report? Yeah, a rent-a-Doc saying it wasn't Winstrol, being paid by Clemens.

New definition of lynching?

It looks like the GOP side is on Roger's side, and that's sad.

[Dan Gould]

No one's gotten back to the question of the conversation between Clemens and Mike Stanton - did the committee interview Stanton? Did Stanton confirm that he spoke about HGH with Clemens and Clemens said "any edge I can get"?

That's the biggest open question, along with Clemens trying to weasel out of the fact that Pettitte and his wife support the fact that Clemens used HGH.

[Dan Gould]

Just realized no one has brought out information about Jim Murray and what he may have said about discussions with McNamee about Clemens steroid use and risk of a positive test.

Good to see that a New York representative gave him some props and now is attacking his credibility on the issue of whether he knew about what Mitchell was investigating regarding his juicing.

[zen archer]

No one's gotten back to the question of the conversation between Clemens and Mike Stanton - did the committee interview Stanton? Did Stanton confirm that he spoke about HGH with Clemens and Clemens said "any edge I can get"?

That's the biggest open question, along with Clemens trying to weasel out of the fact that Pettitte and his wife support the fact that Clemens used HGH.

yea , i was waiting for them to show an affidavit from Stanton claiming he saw the blood thru his pants.

[Dan Gould]

I was amazed that Roger Cossack wasn't giving any attention to the significance of Pettitte and his wife's affidavits, and thinks there's no case here against Clemens from a pure legal perspective. Forget McNamee's credibility issues. Just on the basis of their respective testimonies, there is clear evidence that Clemens has committed perjury about HGH.

And the woman who said he should get into heaven was absolutely pathetic and embarrassing.

[papsrus]

Dan, can you or anyone else explain why the questioning seems to be along party lines here?

It can't simply be because Clemens is a good Republican.

[Dan Gould]

Dan, can you or anyone else explain why the questioning seems to be along party lines here?

It can't simply be because Clemens is a good Republican.

I don't really understand it at all, but I do think that Clemens has connections to Bush Sr (I think he referred to him there a little while ago) so maybe it is protecting their own? I do know that if Jim Bunning were involved he'd be hanging Clemens up by his jock.

[Dan Gould]

Well Elijah is still a star, but I wish he would have come out and simply told him its not credible, its not plausible whatsoever. And Roger's response about what happened when the LA Times report came out, Elijah should have said, "Or, Pettitte came to the realization that if asked, you are going to lie about it. Andy is an honest man and he won't lie when put into a position of testifying under oath."

But he's absolutely correct that Pettitte is the tie-breaker and he destroys Clemens defense. Bottom line -

[Dan Gould]

Now its time to see what material is released by the committee, specifically Pettitte's entire testimony. Obviously Elijah was getting into Clemens and steroids via Pettitte's deposition but he didn't get enough out before he ran out of time.

I'm really surprised no one made reference to Jim Murray's testimony - I would think that McNamee talked about his contact and particularly the meeting in 2003, yet we still don't know if Murray confirmed it or not. I could be wrong in my assumptions that he had things to say, yet neither side used it. The anti-Clemens people could have pointed it out as corraborative of McNamee's statement or else the idiot Republicans might have taken it to attack McNamee's credibility.

[Chalupa]

I watched about an hour and a half of the morning's hearing. Neither McNamee nor Clemens came off all that credible. It is weird how the questioning is coming down on party lines. I was wondering if Roger made a big donation to the RNC.

[Chalupa]

From SI's Tom Verducci: "Finally. Elijah Cummings is the MVP of the hearing. Straightforward, with no grandstanding, Cummings stepped up and finally asked the most important question to Clemens: Why would McNamee tell the truth about Pettitte and Knoblauch but lie about Clemens, especially when Pettitte, by Clemens' own testimony a honest man, backed McNamee's story? Clemens whiffed. 'Congressman, I have no idea,' he said, before devolving into a rambling discourse on Pettitte's friendship with him. Cummings came back again. 'How do you explain that?' Clemens again stumbled, asking why Pettitte didn't tell him when he used HGH, which was not important to the question at hand. Finally, Cummings slammed the door on Clemens. 'It's hard to believe you, sir,' Cummings told Clemens. 'You're one of my heroes. But it's hard to believe you.'"

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writ...amee/index.html