Little Willie John - I need a better compilation

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I don't remember ever seeing anything like that on Ace. It would be a bit unlikely, because the three main artists all recorded for different major labels. EMI eissues.

The period before these singers got "tamed" was pretty short. With a lot of them, all you really get are a few B sides where they were able to do something like what they may have wanted - not prime stuff for a general compilation aimed at the nostalgia market. Cliff Richard made one whole LP like that, which was kind of OK. But it's sunk without trace - Amazon UK lists 174 of his albums, and it isn't among them. If you want to find the vinyl, the title was "Cliff" - so it's not a good thing to try to Google for.

MG

There's a spectacular 4CD Cliff Richard box set on EMI called "The Rock 'n Roll Years 1958-1963" which focuses on the good stuff. Great sound, great package, and I got mine for about $30 on Amazon Marketplace. I'm telling you, to my ears, that box and the Beatles BBC sessions were like the Rosetta Stone for getting from the 50's rockers to the Beatles. I'm sorry, but the Beatles, Searchers, and other Liverpool groups were not just the logical continuation of USA 50's R&R to me, or to a hundred million other kids in the USA in '64. I may have seen it differently in England, if "Love Me Do" and "Sweets For My Sweet" wre my introduction to this stuff, but I was here, and it was "I Want To Hold Your Hand", "She Loves You", "Bad To Me", and "Needles and Pins". Maybe that's the better question - how did the Liverpool groups come so far in 12 months from some of their really early, much cruder stuff? And it happend in London a year later. How did the the Yardbirds get from "Good Morning Little Schoolgirl" to "Heart Full of Soul" (I know part of the answer is Jeff Beck, but he wasn't the writer), how did the Stones get from "It's All Over Now" to "Satisfaction", how did the Hollies get from "Poison Ivy" to "I'm Alive", each in 12 months? Is it just that they learned how to write, or is something else involved? Where do groups like Cliff Richard and the Shadows (especially Hank Marvin), or Johnny Kidd and the Pirates ("Shakin' All Over") fit into the equation. Where do Americans like Jackie DeShannon (the originals of "Needles and Pins" and "When You Want Into The Room") fit in? Weren't the Searchers really doing a form of folk rock a year prior to the Byrds and Dylan? America wants to know! (or at least this American does).

Once you hit "Livin' doll" with Cliff Richard - summer '59 - there's no more R&R, just the same stuff as Philly was churning out.

Ah, Johnny Kidd & the Pirates - forgot about them; "Shakin' all over" WAS a bit of a classic. Other stuff wasn't bad.

Yes, I can see the gap if "She loves you" etc were your intro. Mine was Take out some insurance on me baby/My Bonnie by Tony Sheridan & the Beatles; a pretty decent impression of pre-Army Presley. That was recorded in Germany, for Polydor, and for the German market. I don't know how much has been written about Hamburg in connection with the British group development. Perhaps Steve can chime in here. But, once a band had reached a certain level of proficiency/success as a pub band, the next move was to get them a short residency (a few weeks) in Hamburg. Loads of British bands did that; some more than once. I never went to see any of them, 'cos it was so much cheaper to stay in London But that process seemed to continue into '63 and maybe '64.

Songwriting is interesting. Although so much British rock & Roll was junk, there were some interesting songs being written all the time. I doubt whether there were any direct influences on the new bands. But there was certainly an ambiance around. Some of these songs were written by the pub bands that were recording, others by pro songwriters. A few interesting ones:

Screaming Lord Sutch & the Savages - Till the following night; Jack the Ripper

Cliff Bennett & the Rebel Rousers - That's what I said

Mike Cox - Tribute to Buddy Holly (a much better song than you might expect)

John Leyton - Johnny remember me; Wild wind; Son, this is she

All of the above produced by Joe Meek, who was also doing very inventive things with sound effects and distortion. He was, in a way, the British Phil Spector - definitely wall of sound stuff, but not an orchestral so much as an electronic wall. And it couldn't be reproduced on stage. I think there are a few Joe Meek compilations that might be interesting in this context. But Meek was slightly later than the first wave of British R&R singers we were mentioning earlier, and slightly earlier than the new bands. He started his own label, Triumph, in 1959 and had a hit covering Sam Cooke's "Only sixteen" ( I think). But that was the only one and the label folded; Meek went on as an independent producer, licensing his material to EMI & Decca. And he was very successful up to sometime in '63 as far as I recollect. I don't want to give the impression that he was the only one out there doing interesting stuff; he wasn't. But I particularly liked that stuff and I remember it, even the bad records like the Tornados' "Telstar" (which wasn't really typical Meek - a more typical instrumental would have been The Moontrekkers' "Night of the vampire"/"There's something at the bottom of the well"). (I tried to get a job with Meek in '62, but he told me to fuck off.)

Oh and don't forget that there were some pretty interesting records being made in America. One that seemed to impress everyone with a real interest in music was Ronnie Hawkins' "Bo Diddley"/"Who do you love", mainly for Levon Helms' guitar solo. I don't think that was a hit in America (nor was it in Britain), but that didn't matter in terms of the rock underground that was developing. Other interesting US stuff included Piano Red's "Doctor Feelgood"/"Mr Moonlight", in 1961, which the Beatles later recorded, Percy Mayfield's "River's invitation" with the Ray Charles band in '63, and "Soul motion" by Don & Dewey - Clapton used to say that was his favourite record - I think that was '64. And, of course, Bob Dylan. I think people were getting inspiration from a lot of different sources - none of them in themselves crucial but cumulatively forming a generally interesting environment. Much of this was not popular but well known to the keen fans and to the bands - and if it wasn't well known to the bands, we bloody soon made it well known to them.

Bedtime.

MG

[paul secor]

Oh and don't forget that there were some pretty interesting records being made in America. One that seemed to impress everyone with a real interest in music was Ronnie Hawkins' "Bo Diddley"/"Who do you love", mainly for Levon Helms' guitar solo. I don't think that was a hit in America (nor was it in Britain), but that didn't matter in terms of the rock underground that was developing.

Bedtime.

MG

Robbie Robertson was Hawkins' lead guitarist on that record. Levon Helm was the drummer.

Sure you knew that and were just tired.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Oh and don't forget that there were some pretty interesting records being made in America. One that seemed to impress everyone with a real interest in music was Ronnie Hawkins' "Bo Diddley"/"Who do you love", mainly for Levon Helms' guitar solo. I don't think that was a hit in America (nor was it in Britain), but that didn't matter in terms of the rock underground that was developing.

Bedtime.

MG

Robbie Robertson was Hawkins' lead guitarist on that record. Levon Helm was the drummer.

Sure you knew that and were just tired.

Well I was tired - but I never took much notice of the later incarnation of Levon & the Hawks (or any rock past '63, unless it was unavoidable). So I did think Levon was the guitarist Thanks Paul.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

Ah, Johnny Kidd & the Pirates - forgot about them; "Shakin' all over" WAS a bit of a classic. Other stuff wasn't bad.

Yes, I can see the gap if "She loves you" etc were your intro. Mine was Take out some insurance on me baby/My Bonnie by Tony Sheridan & the Beatles; a pretty decent impression of pre-Army Presley. That was recorded in Germany, for Polydor, and for the German market. I don't know how much has been written about Hamburg in connection with the British group development. Perhaps Steve can chime in here. But, once a band had reached a certain level of proficiency/success as a pub band, the next move was to get them a short residency (a few weeks) in Hamburg. Loads of British bands did that; some more than once. I never went to see any of them, 'cos it was so much cheaper to stay in London But that process seemed to continue into '63 and maybe '64.

Reading the very interesting and entertaining (though non-jazz ) thread, I am beginning to realize the extent to which one's own perception of the music is skewed both by the much more easily accessible reissues of the past 30 years AND by national specificities.

I am far too young to have consciously experienced British beat music when it was big but listening to the music (as an extension to r'n'r and R&B) you will find a lot of "missing links" between 50s r'n'r of the pre-Teen Idol era and the typical "Beatles" sound (after they had honed some of their rough edges). Yet it is true that a lot of these missing links that may have been evident to British and Continental listeners at the time (because the singles WERE issued and bought) may have escaped the Americans (who did not become aware of the early development of British beat) so the bands sounded much more different than they did to European ears.

MG, you are correct about the clubs in Hamburg being an overseas starting place for many British groups (preferably from 'oop narf' , only to a somewhat lesser extent from London) in the early 60s. In fact the working schedule there was fairly tough and they essentially played to an audience that wanted r'n'r (even beyond the point when the Beatles made it big). Stage photos bear witnees to this; even the early Beatles' usual stage outfit was leather jackets, leather pants and boots, and they certainly would not have looked out of style playing to an audience at the Ace Cafe. The Beatles appeared there numerous times, including at the legendary Star Club, but their last appearance there was in late 1962 (just after "Love Me Do" started to make it big). But numerous other bands took up where they left off (to go on to bigger things), and this went on throughout the club's existence up to 1970. In fact no big distinction was made between genuine "Liverpool beat" bands and r'n'r acts for as long as "beat" music" lasted. Both earlier British acts such as Screaming Lord Sutch and Wee Willie Harris AND U.S. r'n'r and R&B acts such as Bill Haley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Ray Charles, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Fats Domino, Gene Vincent played the Star Club up to the mid-60s in addition to all the British bands as well. Style-wise the transition from r'n'r to Liverpool beat was a seamless evolution and not a radical break - Beatlemania or not.

As for what's been written about Hamburg as a milestone in the evolution of British group development, no doubt I am only aware of a small part of the books that have been published but there were/are a LOT, including the fantastic "Star Club" picture opus published in the 80s (but it's in German, of course).

In fact I guess every aspect of the early career of the Beatles and Liverpool beat music must have been printed in book form somewhere. Last summer I picked up an interesting (almost) coffee-table book entitled "Silver Beatles" that dwells exclusively on the band's early history up to mid-1963, with a HUGE part devoted to the Hamburg years. It was written by Marco Crescenzi and first published in Italy but to the best of my knowledge so far has only made it into a French version (which is the one I have). So obviously exposure to the historic facts also varies with your non-English language reading abilities.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Big Beat Steve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I thought you'd know a thing or two about Hamburg Steve - thanks for that interesting post.

I do know a few London bands went to Hamburg. Cliff Bennett & the Rebel Rousers, Screaming Lord Sutch & the Savages and, I think, Chris Farlowe & the Thunderbirds. But you're probably right to say that more northern bands went.

MG

[JSngry]

Very aware of the Beatles' Hamburg years myself, and the thing that most sticks wioth me is the hours that the gigs lasted. Long hours, the type of a gig that gets a band into well-seasoned form in terms of both abilitiy and repertoire. I've seen snippets of footag from, I think, The Star Club, and it shows a scene known to anybody who's worked in any house band at any bar - loud crowds, sweaty, (almost) dirty conditions, and the feeling that you crank it out all night every night for the benefit of a partying crowd no matter what. That kind of gig toughens you up in a wy that no other type gig can.

"Great musicians" they weren't, but "pros" they definitely were.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

It was rather like that in London, too - and probably all over Britain (and the world). And the money must have been apalling.

In those days, 45s were three for a pound. (And the dollar was about three to a pound, too.) But you could go to the Blue Moon Club at Hayes Football ground on a Sunday night, and take two friends with you, and still have enough for a drink (one small one) for the price of a 45. And beer was cheap then, too; one 45 = 7 pints! So I don't know who was making money, because on a Sunday night there'd be two bands, and they'd play all evening until about midnight or so.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

Clem, as for "tame":

Of course you need to take the conditions into account that these singers/bands operated within. You need to consider the predominating trends in pop music in the respective countries at that time to see what listeners, producers, radio programmers etc. considered "the music people wanted", Europe (incuding the UK) didn't exactly embrace true (early, pre-Teen Idol), undiluted r'n'r or even R&B, and exposure (that may have served as inspiration to the musicians) through discs and (AFN) radio was spotty, i.e. there was quite a bit of U.S. music these bands could not have been aware of that we take for granted today with all the comprehensive reissues we have been enjoying during the past 30 years or so. A bit like the situation of jazz music outside the U.S. in early post-war Europe.

That said, quite a bit of early r'n'r (r'n'r being defined by European, i.e. TRUE standards and therefore spanning the 1954 to 1963 era and nothing beyond, so "early" r'n'r means r'n'r recorded in the 50s up to 1957-58) that was made in Europe was not all that tame, certainly not compared to the overall European pop music market and not as tame as a lot of early attempts recorded by U.S. pop market powers in order to catch the tail end of the teen market either (if you are so aware of the Bear Family program, check out their "Rockin' Is Not Our Business" compilations and you know what I mean). Not to mention how a lot of U.S. mainstream country singers really fumbled at trying to get a r'n'r/rockabilly beat going. Evidently they just not dared to really "cut loose". Contrived, lame and tame by r'n'r standards.

So for those who want to look for early British r'n'r before it got tamed, check the suggestions mentioned above and compare for yourself. But when listening to it, do consider the musical environments these were recorded into. A lot of uptempo European r'n'r (even if it was actually only moderately uptempo) sounded like all hell broke loose compared to more conventional pop music. Not unlike Bebop music sounded to those raised on Glenn Miller.

BTW, Lonnie Donegan and all those skiffle bands are a category of their own.

'Nuff sed on this now.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Big Beat Steve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Steve's not wrong in suggesting the importance of looking at the environment into which those British recordings were thrust. But they were tame, all the time. We all knew they were tame in comparison with American recordings of the fifties, which they imitated. But people wanted imitation US R&R, because hardly any American acts were getting over here for gigs. If you can't get the real thing, an imitation serves.

In a fairly short time, the British scene moved from a brief period in which "teen idols" were trying to imitate American R&R, to (in 1959) one in which those same singers were trying to imitate the real teen idols being developed in Philadelphia - Frankie Avalon, Bobby Rydell, Fabian and others. (So tameness is only relative.)

While this was going on, the band which provided the backing for all these singers on TV (Lord Rockingham's XI), was a most interesting bunch, with Cherry Wainer (a South African) on B3 and Red Price (whose inspiration was Red Prysock) on tenor. The juxtaposition of these singers with a band who KNEW what really had been going down in America, was very interesting to say the least. If you can find any 45s of the Red Price Combo (and I don't have any), they can sit next to the Willis Jackson recordings of the fifties quite comfortably. Albums? Don't be silly!

Also while the imitation Philly period was going on on TV and on records and in the British charts, R&R bands were being formed all over Britain; pub bands as I called them in an earlier post. They were mostly, no better. But, because they weren't homegrown "teen idols", and were appearing in local clubs, they were approachable. These local bands would listen to us, because they were, essentially the same sort of people as we were. And we'd talk with them about what records we'd bought and what was good and so on, and gradually, what they were doing on stage changed to reflect what we wanted to hear. This is not really any different to what had been going on for a long time in America; music being developed from the bottom up. But it was a revolution in Britain. And, of course, it was still an imitation - only instead of imitation Ricky Nelson, there was imitation Howlin' Wolf.

Of course, British pop music had been imitating American for decades; probably since early in the century. So American imitations weren't exactly despised over here

There was a longstanding thread of popular music in Britain that owed nothing (or hardly anything) to America. And in this period, quite a few records in this thread became very popular. The most popular was probably Lonnie Donegan's "My old man's a dustman", but there were a fair number of hit singles in that vein, by Tommy Steele, Max Bygraves, Joe Brown & the Bruvvers and Mike Sarne - a few that just popped into my head, no science attached. There was also Lionel Bart's first hit musical, "Things ain't what they used to be", much of which was written in that vein I think. I've always been uncertain whether this was an odd thing that happened to click for a couple of years then left the world or whether it had some impact in terms of showing the bands coming up that, in reality, all kinds of stuff could be done and could be acceptable. And, perhaps more importantly, that it wasn't ABSOLUTELY necessary to imitate US models perfectly.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

Like I said, MG - tameness is relative. The very early Cliff Richard or Tommy Steele certainly is less tame than later Cliff. But hey, that happened Stateside, too. Just compare Johnny Burnette's Trio recordings on Coral with his later Liberty fare. Or how about decidely non-rocking acts such as those McGuire sisters trying to hop on the bandwagon by covering R&B/R'n'R music in a VERY watered-down way to make it "acceptable" to the elders of the teens? Remember Downbeat used the term "wholesome" to describe the McGuire Sisters which just about says it all - how can you be "wholesome" to the establishment and credibly doing a music that by necessity is raw and rough-edged?

So while I agree with you, I would not say those earlier European (and British) R'n'R acts were all tame. Diluted or watered down is the word, I guess.

Anyway, I also agree about Lord Rockinghams XI. A tight instrumental band despite the novelty aspect ("There Is A Loose Moose Aboot This Hoose" ) Also don't overlook the early 45s by SOUNDS INC. Or how about some of what the Basil Kirchin band recorded?

As for Red Price, one single track of his has ("Theme Form Danger man") been reissued on "20 Classic Instrumental Rarities" on See For Miles LP SEE 37.

And as an example of what could have happened if the A&R men had dared to release the records, listen to Jesse Hector's Rock'n'Roll Trio. His 1961 demos recorded for Pye remained unissued and were not released until the 90s (on NO HIT Records, a fitting name ) but are quite revealing of what could have been or of what probably happened in the clubs at the time (before Liverpool Beat or London R&B sprung up) but never was recorded for posterity.

Edited December 16, 2007 by Big Beat Steve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Like I said, MG - tameness is relative. The very early Cliff Richard or Tommy Steele certainly is less tame than later Cliff. But hey, that happened Stateside, too. Just compare Johnny Burnette's Trio recordings on Coral with his later Liberty fare. Or how about decidely non-rocking acts such as those McGuire sisters trying to hop on the bandwagon by covering R&B/R'n'R music in a VERY watered-down way to make it "acceptable" to the elders of the teens? Remember Downbeat used the term "wholesome" to describe the McGuire Sisters which just about says it all - how can you be "wholesome" to the establishment and credibly doing a music that by necessity is raw and rough-edged?

So while I agree with you, I would not say those earlier European (and British) R'n'R acts were all tame. Diluted or watered down is the word, I guess.

Anyway, I also agree about Lord Rockinghams XI. A tight instrumental band despite the novelty aspect ("There Is A Loose Moose Aboot This Hoose" ) Also don't overlook the early 45s by SOUNDS INC. Or how about some of what the Basil Kirchin band recorded?

As for Red Price, one single track of his has ("Theme Form Danger man") been reissued on "20 Classic Instrumental Rarities" on See For Miles LP SEE 37.

And as an example of what could have happened if the A&R men had dared to release the records, listen to Jesse Hector's Rock'n'Roll Trio. His 1961 demos recorded for Pye remained unissued and were not released until the 90s (on NO HIT Records, a fitting name ) but are quite revealing of what could have been or of what probably happened in the clubs at the time (before Liverpool Beat or London R&B sprung up) but never was recorded for posterity.

Yes, forgot to mention Sounds Inc; a very good band bringing together R&R and early Stax and a bit of jazz. I saw them a few times here and there; most notably in a warehouse in Southall backing Gene Vincent. That seems like 1962, but may have been 1961.

Oh and by the way, the "Hoots mon" line was "there's a moose loose aboot this hoose" The B side, "Blue train" was a good bit better.

Thanks for your rundown of some of these things that have been reissued Steve. Though I think I went past the interest in this stuff in 1963 I wouldn't refuse a Red Price 45 if someone gave me one, but I think I WOULD refuse pretty well anything else from that era.

MG