Nero Problems

[Jim Alfredson]

There is proof of this board scaring off some industry folks. I am in no position to elabor, but it is so.

Only once that I'm aware of - iirc, a British magazine refused to review our cd after someone on the board had written negative comments about said mag. We sort of shrugged that one off; for one thing, the comments were not wholly inaccurate.

That's the only one I know of. If couw has more information, then I'd appreciate a heads-up. If there is more, perhaps the wisest move would be to change the name of the board.

Or maybe not; the current music business is in flux. The old paradigms are falling and nobody knows what is going to emerge. So why worry about what the current model thinks?

Take Daptone Records, for instance. They bypassed all the normal channels and did things their way and they are very successful. The owner, Gabriel Roth, has said some pretty strong things about digital, about audiophiles, about jazz, etc. Didn't seem to hurt him or his label at all.

[Quincy]

I'm just trying to get a handle on the irritant here. Is it "thread drift"? Well, that's always been one fo the distinguishing features here, and a major "love point" for me personally. Is it how somebody will interrupt a lovefest for a certain artist with negative firsthand recollections that take some of the rosecolor off the glasses? Well, ok, I can kinda see how that might be upsetting to people who want their heroes to be HEROES, but otoh, reality is what it is, and I for one don't see why your heroes can't also be assholes and/or otherwise failed human beings. Now, if it's a combination of those two things, well, I can kinda see that just a little more, but only just a little.

It's not thread drift in itself, nor is it knocking down heroes. I think most of us are grown up to know that all artists (well, 'cept Monk ) have their bum notes & problems. It's more nuanced and there's more backstory than that, at least from my understanding.

I don't really consider myself one of the offended, but I am very concerned about losing members over what in part seems to be cultural differences in how to behave, along with the philosophical differences about "free speech." The latter problem, especially how Che's (changing the name for the sake of the "Googles") nut-see-ism was handled by board members has led me to rethink how one handles that ideology. Several European members (and a few Americans) wanted that crap squashed immediately saying that it had no place here. The classic "free speech" response, which is one thing that American liberals & conservatives tend to agree on, is let the nut-see speak his ignorant mind and our wonderful smart & witty replies back will prove what a fool the nut-see is. I think that maybe our Founding Fathers didn't foresee bulletin boards, internet stalking, and how fast things move. Having witnessed it a few times elsewhere too you can now file me under an ACLU type who now favors instant squashing if a pro nut-see poster popped up here causing trouble. A contradiction? I guess, but oh well.

That's a lot of backstory (but you usually appreciate that) and the nut-see-ism is something that thankfully hasn't reoccurred, but I think those of us who aren't easily offended should try to understand why the words "free speech" don't make some posters feel all warm & fuzzy. It can get very ugly in extreme situations, and I think the that's probably the first thing that pops into the mind for some every time "free speech" is mentioned.

So there's all that, and then maybe simply this: the cattiness quotient has been especially high for awhile. I like some cattiness, hell, I read Maureen Dowd. I relish the occasional poke and snide remarks, hearing some "inside dirt," even the slag fests against the favorite whipping boys. But there's a place for cattiness and a certain level that can be tolerated. It's very much like salting your food. A pinch makes the dish delicious, pour too much on your food and you don't want to eat it. And obviously it's not good for the blood pressure.

A lot of verbiage above and I don't think I addressed all of the nuances (such as concern about the band's reputation for being associated with the board), or even if I'm correct in my understanding. Cattiness can be expected in artist & album discussions, but it can be dialed down to not pop up everywhere. Hmm, you know, I think the movie & film threads have been free of this - maybe I'm wrong. So perhaps that could be an example of what some people would prefer more of - critical discussion without or with less cattiness.

Apologies if I'm way off on my understanding of the situation(s). I don't think anyone wants to sanitize the board or dumb down discussion, or have posters withhold "bad news" about artists. It's just all a matter of degree I think. As long as we keep trying to seeing things from the other perspective and have some appreciation for it, maybe we can all work it out. (Another apology to some for almost invoking the Beatles.)

[Jim Alfredson]

Thanks for the post. I am still running this stuff through my head and trying to figure out a solution that will be a compromise, as much as that is possible.

[JSngry]

As for "industry impact", that's the band's call all the way, and I would expect them follow their consciences, which at this point it seems that they are doing quite nicely, thank you!

Ok, Che (as I recall it, which isn't with total clarity, because I let it go once it was over) - I remember that being handled in a "give him enough rope and see if he hangs himself" manner. Sure enough, he did, and he got his. All I can say about that is that letting a fool do it to themself usually takes longer than doing it for them, but you don't create a martyr in the process. Short term pain, long term gain in that regard. Now, if anybody's holding onto a grudge about that, I ask them this - is he still around? Is anybody wanting him back? If he attempted to return, would he be welcome? The answers are no, no, and not likely. Unlike another poster who was banned and then let back in, Che showed no signs of being anything other than a malevolent troll, and nobody that I can think of in this forum can quote one positive contribution that he made. Yes, the "free speech"card was played, but only to give this guy every opportunity to show that he could contribute positively, if only occasionally. When he failed to do so, he got the boot, and as I recall, it came fast and unambiguously, and it was over for him. I'm sure that way of handling the matter upset some, but really, the ultimate outcome speaks for itself in terms of where the board's management's heart truly lies. Some might not like the time it takes to get there, but doggone it, it will get there, and when it does, it's there for keeps. If one wishes to value "speed" over "ultimate outcome", then that is their perogative. We all have our preferences, and there are things in life that I wish/think could/should move faster (or slower) to get to where they should be. But it ain't just about me, and as long as the final outcome gets to where I think it should be, I've learned (slowly, very slowly...) to just grit my teeth and wait for when it does, at which point I can breathe a sigh of relief and get on with my usual business of finding something else to be unhapply about.

Now, "cattiness", yeah it gets on my nerves too, sometimes. I mean, I love Chris to death, my god, what a life and what a contribution he's made, but hey - Orin Keepnews, John Hammond, and some others were self-serving jerks, I get it already! Specific anecdotes relevant to particular threads are ok, but the casual insertions of the general assertions, yeah, I gotta roll my eyes sometimes/frequently.

But here's the deal for me about that - this isn't a "discussion board", this is a community, which is a whole 'nother thing. Community involves stuff like acceptance, forgiveness, and in genral just giving people you love some space to be who/what they are even if you don't always dig what they do with it. Why? Just because. Or maybe because a community can exist only when/where people feel comfortable being themselves, imperfections and all. If you listen to Chris, yes, he fights back when attacked, but he also will pull back when approached with respect and civility. Once again, the final outcome is perfectly cool, even if the road to it ain't always so. I look at it like this - cats like Chris & Chuck have paid dues that most of us can only begin to imagine, and yeah, that's gonna leave scars. If sometime those scars hurt to one degree or another, that sucks for them, and the "discomfort" their pain causes the rest of us (when it does) sucks too. But dammit, what good is a community that only wants you when you're showing your sunny side? That's not a community, that's a freakin' JOB, dig?

There's gotta be some love in the mix, and love ain't noways near always pretty.

I'm not asking anybody to not be bugged at some of the shit that goes on here. That would be hypocritical of me, as I too have irritants to deal with here, just as I do in the rest of my life. I only ask that people look at the bigger picture and ask - when the dust clears, has the really bad shit been dealt with? And are the people who are sometimes bugging you with their sometimes behavior people with whom the community would be better off without?

As I look back at this community's history, I can honestly say that the answers to those questions are yes & no respectively. And that's why I love this place, warts and all. When it gets a little too thick, I pull back for a couple of days and come back. And when it's good, hell, ain't no place better for doing what it is that we do.

[Joe G]

Well said J.S.

[porcy62]

But here's the deal for me about that - this isn't a "discussion board", this is a community, which is a whole 'nother thing. Community involves stuff like acceptance, forgiveness, and in genral just giving people you love some space to be who/what they are even if you don't always dig what they do with it. Why? Just because. Or maybe because a community can exist only when/where people feel comfortable being themselves, imperfections and all. If you listen to Chris, yes, he fights back when attacked, but he also will pull back when approached with respect and civility. Once again, the final outcome is perfectly cool, even if the road to it ain't always so. I look at it like this - cats like Chris & Chuck have paid dues that most of us can only begin to imagine, and yeah, that's gonna leave scars. If sometime those scars hurt to one degree or another, that sucks for them, and the "discomfort" their pain causes the rest of us (when it does) sucks too. But dammit, what good is a community that only wants you when you're showing your sunny side? That's not a community, that's a freakin' JOB, dig?

There's gotta be some love in the mix, and love ain't noways near always pretty.

I'm not asking anybody to not be bugged at some of the shit that goes on here. That would be hypocritical of me, as I too have irritants to deal with here, just as I do in the rest of my life. I only ask that people look at the bigger picture and ask - when the dust clears, has the really bad shit been dealt with? And are the people who are sometimes bugging you with their sometimes behavior people with whom the community would be better off without?

As I look back at this community's history, I can honestly say that the answers to those questions are yes & no respectively. And that's why I love this place, warts and all. When it gets a little too thick, I pull back for a couple of days and come back. And when it's good, hell, ain't no place better for doing what it is that we do.

My thought

[7/4]

2) Couw, spare us the bullshit Deep Throat routine-- "I can't elaborate..." well guess what, ** I **, edc of gritsville, know at least half a dozen people in the biz one way or another who are down with Organissimo just because of this board... en passe?

[couw]

this is a community

no doubt I am dead wrong, but your post reads like an advert for a caste society where all are created equal but those with the proper dues and tormented souls are more equal and allowed to spew at the cost of others and the group. Cool beans if the group can handle it, but obviously it cannot. Sure there are lots of folks who are not vocal about being bothered and sure there are those who see nothing wrong and are rather vocal about that. Heck, there may even be some who are exalted by it all and are having a field day right now. But there is definitely also an increasing number of folks who are simply appalled or otherwise not amused; people are leaving this place -- full stop. This place is turning into a cliquish affair for the selected elite. I am all for a loving community where everyone can be themselves, but it is simply to utopic to be. So everyone adapts and I fail to see why that would not apply to those with the loudest mouths and the foulest language or those with the most exquisit CV.

So let's have that community you speak of, but focus a bit more on behaving ourselves instead of going into rampant mode demanding everyone swallow everything. Just cut the crap and be nice to each other (and the rest of the world).

[Jazzmoose]

:blink: Damn! I'm glad I said I'd volunteer to moderate 'discography' and not 'audio talk'...

[king ubu]

now for the heck of it, get in line, couw!

[Christiern]

:tup Clem.

But there is definitely also an increasing number of folks who are simply appalled or otherwise not amused; people are leaving this place -- full stop.

Oh, that again.

[Harold_Z]

I just stumbled in here myself - I had assumed it was about an audio program I didn't use.

WOW! Ya never know, y'know?

Gotta say my attitude is more in line with Chris, Sangrey, 7/4, Clem etc.

It's a thread--threads grow - they move into varying fields of discussion, sometimes lead to new threads. It's life as we know it on the bulletin board circuit.

[Harold_Z]

Oh..and I say the above as an attendee of the very exclusive Bernie Nierow Annual Coffee Fest and Roast.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Harold_Z

[neveronfriday]

Hm.

I have to support John all the way here, not only because we are friends and have been for quite a while (thanks to this board by the way), but also because he has given voice to my exact thoughts as well.

I've been away for a few days and have only now read through all of this and I don't think I have anything to say aside from replicating what John an Flurin have said again ... no real point to that.

I'd like to add this though:

When I posted that one-liner upon which Jim announced the closing down of this board, I meant what I said. In all this subsequent euphoria re the saving of this board, that one important point got a bit buried. Before the shmooze fest going on at the moment, posting had slowed to a crawl around here. Some people said that it was because everything had been talked to death, others assumed that it was just a slow month, etc. My theory is that it happened because lots of people left or lots of people withdrew. There was a time when I could open one of those "another 100.000 posts" threads ever so often, now it will seemingly take another decade to reach another milestone.

Of course, the number of posts (especially those with smileys, double-smileys and triple smileys) do not the quality of a board make, but for months (not weeks) things had slowed down majorly that a visit once a week (for me) was enough to check on the worthwhile stuff.

I can only speak for myself, but I only dropped by here to read once in a while and did not really feel like posting anything. There were just too many derailed threats, too many which seemed more like an ego display for some and a dump-on for others. No fun. The latter is what killed it for me and, despite all these "we saved the BigO" posts, I don't really see any change in what I personally perceived to be wrong with this board lately.

I'm far past wanting to point fingers or taking single individuals to task (I myself could be taken to task for, for example, not contributing to tip the scales, and I'm well aware of that), but the fact remains that if things continue to develop the way they have been developing these past two or three years, slowly and gradually, you simply won't have many of the posters around that once made this a fun and highly communicative site.

I'm also aware of the fact that many of those who seemingly do not understand what some of us "complainers" are getting at are telling us to just drop it or leave, because we're being a nuisance (that is the definite feel I get from this thread) and I guess many of the more vocal opposition and those from the silent rows in the back will just do that, drop it or leave.

We all know that both the leaving here and the dropping of issues and going quiet has already been taking place on a major scale these past weeks and months and I get the definite feel that for many others that is a necessary evil to "endure" for keeping things going the way they always have (they haven't really always been going that way now, have they?).

My suggestion is simple. We end the discussion right here, because this thread clearly shows that nothing can be gotten from it and those who object leave and join those elsewhere who have already.

It's really a simple solution.

And it saves Jim the trouble of having to put up with this shite.

[Christiern]

I had no idea that you were a Shiite!

[neveronfriday]

I had no idea that you were a Shiite!

Far too dangerous in that world of ours, as you should know.

[Niko]

Chris, you like to pull out the "I don't know who or what you are" card whenever someone who doesn't use their full name as their handle calls you on something. But have you considered the fact that anyone who hasn't been here for a long time wouldn't necessarily know who "Christiern" is? It is equally 'anonymous' as "couw" (which happens to be a shortening of John's surname and rather similar to your use of your given name).

Really, Dan? Equally anonymous?

I was going to leave this thread, but your bogus argument begs for a correction.

Now does it sink in why I don't know couw's gender or anything else about him/her? Not that I care, this poster has his or her own reasons for disliking me, and anonymous hatred has never bothered me. If you are going to call people names, I think your chances of being taken seriously are greater if you identify yourself. I have nothing to hide, hence I post my name and even my picture. My handle here, Christiern, is my actual first name, which I used because Chris A was already taken (by me, as it turned out). Now, can we stop this childish idiocy, or are you going to continue going down (and I do mean down) the couw path?

hey, why does the picture say 9999 posts?

[Niko]

We could gladly continue in German if you'd prefer - and no, I'm no nazi, I'm swiss,

took me two days to realize how offensive i could have taken THAT (if i weren't swiss in a broad sense of the word as well)

[king ubu]

We could gladly continue in German if you'd prefer - and no, I'm no nazi, I'm swiss,

took me two days to realize how offensive i could have taken THAT (if i weren't swiss in a broad sense of the word as well)

oh well, you see, I'm all for free speech and sometimes for tasteless remarks and jokes, too...

[mikeweil]

Maybe you should have a warning that says the opinions written on this board do not reflect in any shape or form those by the Organissimo band.

That should be self-evident, but if a disclaimer helps, go ahead!

[Man with the Golden Arm]

By the way, I just bought a pair of new jeans... size is 33 (waist) & 36 (leg) - just in case that helps you identifying me

braggart ... i recently put my 33 / 36 on and had to go with 34s from here out!

[JSngry]

I'm also aware of the fact that many of those who seemingly do not understand what some of us "complainers" are getting at are telling us to just drop it or leave, because we're being a nuisance (that is the definite feel I get from this thread) and I guess many of the more vocal opposition and those from the silent rows in the back will just do that, drop it or leave.

All I've said is that I really don't understand the source of such apparent extreme discomfort.

And all I've meant is that I really don't understand the source of such apparent extreme discomfort.

And all I've really heard so far is that "I'm uncomfortable because of A, B, or C", when A, B, or C is apparently entirely subjective, since there are people whom A, B, & C doesn't bother.

If somebody/anybody could give me some sort of background, some sort of personal/cultural/whatever insight, some specifics, I would greatly appreciate it, because frankly, I'm starting to feel that I'm being insulted for not being insulted about something that I have absolutely no idea what it actually is, or perhaps even because I have absolutely no idea what it actually is!

If this is one of those "I'm not going to tell you what I'm thinking because you should know it without me having to spell it out for you" things, then, yeah, I got no interest in playing that game whatsoever. After all, this is a community, not a marriage.

[JSngry]

Oh wait, I think I get it now - it's my turn to be upset, and for somebody else to sit there and wonder aloud what I'm upset about!

Nice role-reversal trick!

[Man with the Golden Arm]

If this is one of those "I'm not going to tell you what I'm thinking because you should know it without me having to spell it out for you" things, then, yeah, I got no interest in playing that game whatsoever. After all, this is a community, not a marriage.

now get offa that 'puter and take out the trash!

[Dmitry]

Again, I'm slightly late to voice my decisive missive. I read most of this thread, and if THIS is why some fine people have left the forum, this is some tripe stuff.

Think how much has happened since then...Chris Albertson is dead, couw hasn't been seen in a dozen years, some others as well. Nero....I haven't run across any mention of it in a decade.