Blindfold test #2 Discussion

[mikeweil]

I'd say let's wait some more days or perhaps the whole week to give the others a chance to post their comments. I'd rather wait than miss JSngry or couw or Soul Stream or whoever hasn't commented yet. Or are they just taking their time? Anyway, don't be disappointed, Dan, it's a great disc, I play it often!

[Dan Gould]

Well, after further deliberation, I think its fair to withhold the answers til Saturday the 27th to allow more active participation in the puzzling it out part. It seems that there are a number of recipients who haven't chimed in yet, this of course may be due to "life" intervening (what, there's a life outside of this board? Pshaww!) but at the same time I think the Post Office did a less than stellar job, as several replacement discs had to be mailed out in the last week also.

So, keep the guesses coming; the answers will wait another six days.

[Tom Storer]

Got mine over the weekend (thanks, couw!). Here goes:

1. No idea. Nice mood but totally generic. My impression is that the pianist could have played this in his or her sleep and perhaps actually did.

2. Joe Williams, "I'd Rather Drink Muddy Water." No doubt a festival given the happy hand-clapping and sing-along. No idea as to the accompanying trio. Joe could sing the phone book and I'd love it.

3. I'd guess the alto player is someone more closely associated with r&b/soul than jazz of the bebop variety. The band definitely sounds more like a soul group than a jazz band. King Curtis? A guess.

4. "Watermelon Man." I love the tenor player, who I'm sure I know – that gruff tone, the witty phrasing. But I can't put my finger on who it is. It occurred to me that if Joe Williams played the saxophone he'd sound like this.

5. Weird sound at the beginning – is that two saxophones or one in an echo chamber? OK, two soloing… My first thought was Al and Zoot, but the second soloist sounds like Clifford Jordan to me!

6. Nice. The tenor player has loads of Dexterisms; on the other hand he plays some fast flurries (such as around the 1 minute mark, again at 1:27) that definitely don't sound like Dexter to me. So all I'll say is that it's someone who has listened to a lot of Dexter Gordon. No idea who the trombonist is. The bass player had me thinking of Ron Carter.

7. "Billie's Bounce." A good bluesy jam session – could be a Pablo affair. The only alto player I can think of who was in the Pablo stable was Benny Carter, and I don't think it's him. That trill thing he does around 1:25 and a couple more times is kind of tasteless. I'm sure I'll be embarassed that I can't begin to identify the trumpet. The rhythm section cooks along rather nicely.

8. I think this tune is "Since I Fell For You." Could be Houston Person on tenor, from a few decades ago – there are some licks repeated often in the solo that I associate with him. No idea for the rest of the band.

9. Damn, that's a familiar voice on tenor. But who? Can't quite place him. Is it "The Nearness of You"? The rendition kind of drags, as if they're all rather tired or depressed.

10. I think I identify the patented Ralph Moore vibrato. The timbre doesn't sound right otherwise but it could just be the recording. I'll go with Moore on tenor; that would make me think it's him with Ray Brown's trio, since I know they've recorded together and the general bluesy, swinging atmosphere is right. But I'd swear the bass player is Ron Carter, with all that surface noise, and in particular the double stops in the solo.

11. "Footprints." Modern version, I like it. I assumed the theme of this test had to do with bluesy, gritty, greazy, fonkiness, but this doesn't fit. No idea who it is.

12. Organ with a big band or at least a horn section, nice dirty sound. A stratospheric trumpet à la Cat Anderson can be heard in the opening. Didn't Duke do a couple of things with an organist? But this has nothing Dukish about it. No idea who this is.

13. If I were in the club with a couple of drinks under my belt I'd love this to death, but in the cold light of day piano playing like this doesn't do it for me. The problem with the blues is that it's often very predictable, even if the feeling is sincere. But I must admit it's very well done in the style. The tenor is also very solid, and very familiar-sounding. Don't know who it is.

Remarks: One thing these blindfold tests drive home is how vast the shared language of jazz really is. You realize how much of the vocabulary actually gets played by huge numbers of players... you *know* you've heard that musician, but then it turns out to be someone you've *never* heard, but playing a style you're familiar with, with licks that may have originally come from some ancestor a generation or three ago and been widely distributed. Hence "familiar-sounding" in my comments on number 13 above... But this could be a thread of its own!

[Soul Stream]

Number 12 is "I'm Gonna Move To The Outskirts of Town" from Groove Holmes "A Bowl Of Soul" LP. Arranged and conducted by Onzy Matthews.

Great Lp I hadn't listened to in a LONG time. Thanks Dan, great pick.

...cut 1 has got to be Gene Harris and the 3 sounds. From what album I haven't a clue, but by the great sound I would guess a Blue Note. You know it's Gene from the second he hits those ringing chords on the intro. Great stuff. No group can get this sort of thing to happen except the 3 Sounds.

. 3. Is "Stand By Me" by lord knows who. 4. "Watermelon Man by "Lockjaw" Davis maybe, Les McCann on piano perhaps.

8>Since I Fell for You....has got to be McGriff with Melvin Sparks and co. from the 80's. Although McGriff doesn't solo, so that makes me think I might be wrong. But sometimes he did that on his albums from this time period. This is still a staple of McGriff's live show.

13 is "Lonely Ave" but by who....? Hmmm. The drummer needs to be kicked on this one. Must be a more recent album because the drummer is so lame, he thinks he's a jazz guy slumming it in his lame-o blues mode. He's draggin' this thing down. Stop diggin' coal!!!! And the bassist ain't helping, bored and noodling. The saxophonist sounds like Eric Alexander trying too hard. He's so overplaying on this tune it's sad. Sounds like a bunch of young guys backing up an old-timer on piano. Maybe something with Harold Maebern and those guys. This sucks. It makes me hate jazz. Jazz guys ruining the blues. If this is some authentic stuff, it's still bad.

I still haven't finished listening to the whole thing....these are just a few initial thoughts.

Edited September 22, 2003 by Soul Stream

[mmilovan]

Nothing came till now on, but I can wait, and will put my comments when it arives.

[Brad]

I think the reaction to #13 is amusing or interesting to say the least. Either you love it or you hate. I loved it myself. This is the kind of song that you'd hear in a club and would get down with. It grabs your attention, especially the beat laid down by the drummer and the pianist's extended solo. The bass solo does seem out of place a bit. I was actually surprised it was not a live performance. I'm very curious to see who this was.

[Dan Gould]

And it will be especially interesting when I reveal the rhythm section, we'll see what Soul Stream says then!

[pryan]

So Dan, when will the answers be revealed?

[Dan Gould]

Well, I asked that question over the weekend. Because it seems that nearly 50% of the recipients have not posted their reactions or, in a number of cases, have had to wait for replacement discs, I decided to give people a little more time.

So, to answer your question, answers will be revealed on Saturday the 27th. That's just a bit longer than the gap between the start of Tony's discussion and his posting of the answers. I think it seems like longer because my test has gotten less back-and-forth discussion of who might be playing on what. Or else, its the fact that Jim Sangrey is among those who had to get a replacement disc mailed!

[Soul Stream]

And it will be especially interesting when I reveal the rhythm section, we'll see what Soul Stream says then!

...o.k. I take what I said back about the drummer after really listening this morning. Pretty lowdown. He IS an older cat who's just laying it down hard. The pianist is obviously a master. HE is BAAAADDDDD.

However, I don't dig the sax player at all. It IS a young guy. He's blowing every cliche he knows, lost in technique. And the bassist may be an older cat but I don't dig what he's doing. Maybe he's just keeping it loose and interesting, since the drummer is so super-straight and laying it down.

and O.K...I could be wrong about everything.

But that's half the fun it seems on these blindfold tests. At least when I read them in magazines. I like when people take a hard stand. Wrong or right it's more interesting that way. Still, can't wait to see who it is I'm bashing.

[RDK]

Here's track 4...

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&u...l=Afd5gtq9zmu42

[Dan Gould]

Someone else already guessed that one, Ray.

[Brad]

Someone else already guessed that one, Ray.

So, you're conceding that's the correct answer?

[Dan Gould]

Would I use "guess" if that were the case?

[Soul Stream]

I'm not sure how everyone is playing on this. I will say, using AMG, almost any song can be narrowed down to a particular song/artist.

But, what the fun is that? Maybe people are or aren't doing that. I don't know. Personally, I've made an oath to myself to just go off the top of my head and not "research" these things. Like a Downbeat Blindfold Test, those guys are on the spot right then. That's what makes this interesting to me.

I pulled out a Groove Holmes out of my record collection to find out a particular cut. Afterwards, I felt like I cheated since my initial guess was wrong.

But like I said, I don't know what everyone's doing on this. I would just say it's more fun when you do it on the fly.

[RDK]

I'm not sure how everyone is playing on this. I will say, using AMG, almost any song can be narrowed down to a particular song/artist.

Yeah, AMG helps, but it's not as easy as you might think unless you know the song title or are *sure* of an artist.

I posted my initial thoughts last week, without reading any other comments on this thread or refering to AMG. That's the only fair way to do it as far as I'm concerned - despite my now being embarrassed by a few of my guesses.

I actually didn't read (or remember) that someone already suggested the album above. But this morning while listening to the disc again I cross-checked it with something I found on emusic - 'nuff said.

Now, in between real work, I'm trying to narrow down some choices and start listening more to how different players *sound* on their instruments - something that I'm not really very good at. For while I see these blindfold tests as fun, I also see it as a learning (and listening) experience for me. It's not really a surprise to me - though the test confirms it - that I'm better at recognizing songs and musical styles than the sounds of individual artists. I'm also rather Blue Note-centric and need to open up my ears to other labels and other (often less familiar) artists.

I'm eagerly awaiting the answers later in the week - as well as hoping for more in-depth discussion here - as I'm about through with guessing. I'm digging these tunes greatly, but it's getting frustrating because I dn't know who's playing! B)

[mikeweil]

So you cross-checked? Really tricky of Dan to choose a tune that exists in two versions with the same line-up and identical length ... B)

After a relisten I have to say, this could indeed be Kenny Washington - that's the player I know the best. But Peter Washington's bass sound s a little different than on other recordings. Okay, you win ...

Edited September 23, 2003 by mikeweil

[A Lark Ascending]

I really don't have much to say about the disc apart from how much I've enjoyed it.

But what it has really brought home to me is how when we talk about 'jazz' on boards like this we are often talking about completely different things. The music on this disc is clearly the heartland for many people here. It's on the periphery of my jazz listening.

It's no wonder we can often find ourselves at cross purposes when discussing recordings we hold in common, given the very different listening backgrounds we each have. I think I can appreciate more readily why some people have such problems with ECM discs if they are coming from a listening history of music like that heard on Dan's disc.

Apart from being a great listen this disc is a timely reminder to act cautiously when finding yourself in disagreement with someone over a particular recording!

Edited September 23, 2003 by Bev Stapleton

[JazzAddict]

Hello,

I'm a new member to this board and would like to add my thoughts to these Blindfold discussions. Thanks to the kindness of Dan, I've had my disc for about a week now, although I've only had a chance to really listen to it once. Before I get to the disc, I'll give a brief introduction of myself.

I became interested in jazz around 8th grade. Primarily because I played the saxophone in the school's concert and jazz bands. I love the sound of the saxophone (at least with most players), and because of that i wanted to find recordings that featured the saxophone. Thus, my 8th grade band director gave me the names of Paul Desmond, David Sanborn, and Charlie Parker. Since then, I've been buying jazz recordings on a regular basis.

Although I love jazz, my musical background has been mainly classical. During high school, I had the good fortune to study with one of the best classical saxoponists in the world. I later went on to get a BM in saxophone performance from Indiana University while studying with Eugene Rousseau. By the end of my senior year, I was burned out from the daily routine of practicing and rehearsals. After graduation, I went back to school, got a degree in computer science, and I'm now employeed as a software engineer.

Some of you may know me from the bluenote bulliten board. At that board I posted under the name of "DeweyDex." Although not frequently.

To make this more like a real blindfold test, I have not read any of the discussion up to this point. So here are my thoughts.

In general, I really liked the selection of music that Dan put together for us.

#1 - This was a nice piano trio. There is a definite gospel influence, especially with the trills and runs from the pianist. No idea who the performers are, but I enjoyed it.

#2 - From the lyrics, I would guess that the title is "Drink Muddy Water." A simple tune base on the Blues. Very repetitive. I didn't care for the vocalist and I didn't care for the tune. This one would go back into the bins.

#3 - The name of the song is on the tip of my tongue, but just can't think of it at the moment. It's one of those popular "oldies" songs that get played on the radio often. Sounds like the recording was dubbed from vinyl. Not sure who's playing alto (need to get some recordings from this era/style), but I'll venture a guess of Earl Bostic or Tab Smith.

#4 - I found the Tenor saxophonist enjoyable, but somewhat limited in their abilities. Not sure who the performer is, but they have a rougher tone (not heavy, but unrefined). I hear bits and pieces of a younger Joshua Redman, but the performer is obviously from before Joshua's time. The song was probably recorded in the 80's or 90's. I'd have to guess that's it's one of the elder jazz performers.

#5 - Horrible acoustics. You can tell this was recorded in a Hall somewhere. Didn't really care for this, and I'm not sure who the musicians are.

#6 - Another one that sounds like it was dubbed from Vinyl. Again, not really sure who the performer's are.

#7 - "Moose The Mooche" An enjoyable rendition, although the altoist did too many embellishments. Sounds as thought the altoist is either a japanese player or a smooth jazz player trying to do some staight ahead jazz. Two names that came to mind were Najee and Sadao Watanabe. Even though Sadao has done some pretty good staight ahead dates, he has a very distinctive sound that I did not hear in this recording. Whoever the performer is, I found that they used too many embellishments to cover up their lack of ideas.

#8 - "Flamingo" I really enjoyed this. A nice relaxing organ and sax combo. I'm pretty sure the altoist is Hank Crawford. Possibly Jimmy McGriff on organ.

#9 - Nice Ballad. No idea who the musicians are.

#10 - Again, I really liked this track.

#11 - "Footprints" It was interesting to hear this performed by only a rhythm section. I liked it.

#12 - Interesting combination of a Big Band with an organ soloist. I liked the instrumentation, but the performance was dull.

#13 - Good sounding recording. I'm definitely going to buy this recording once I find out who it is. The tenor player has a nice full tone. I'm interested to find out who it is.

Well, that's all for now.

[JazzAddict]

DUH!

#7 is definitely "Billie's Bounce" (a lot of those Parker tune's sound alike).

#8 is definitely "Since I Fell for you"

I must agree that I find the comments for #13 especially interesting. This track really grabbed me upon my first listen. I'll have to see if my opinion changes after repeated listenings.

The more I listen to #4, the more I like it. Great tune and some fine playing.

[mikeweil]

Welcome a-board, JazzAddict. If your name is your program, you'll find a lot for your needs here ... except the music itself, that is.

I had another listen to track 4, and wondered why I didn't recognite the Washingtons on first listen: they sound different than on the Criss Cross or Blue Note sessions I heard. Rudy Van Gelder is the cause, he used a pickup on Peter Washington's full woody bass sound, put reverb on the drum set - the rest of the band doesn't have any - this is not my idea of good recorded sound. A routine engineering job that masks the instrumental sound. As for the performance: Norman Simmons hits a wrong chord in the intro, why didn't they start over? What bugs me a little the more often I listen to it is the way Holloway treats the them, he starts with a phrase that suggests Night Train - well he's a great player, but I probably won't buy this album.

I find the remarks of Bev Stapleton really hit the mark: We all have different tastes, backgrounds and preferences, and these blindfolds are a very nice way to show each other what we like. It's all jazz, in the end, and this is not the place to start any flame wars about what it is or not. I'm looking forward to the next test.

And: could track # 5 be from this album? It features the leader on alto, Jerome Richardson and Frank Wess on flutes and tenors, Hank Jones, Eddie Jones and Kenny Clarke in the rhythm section. Was this ever on CD? Another Savoy gem waiting for resurrection.

[JSngry]

Got the test disc Monday afternoon, and listened to it last night. These responses are being made having not read any of this thread so far.

TRACK 1 - Definitely "Drown In My Own Tears". Sounds like the 3 Sounds live (or simulated live". AMG shows that hey did this one on LIGHTHOUSE, but the CD must have a bunch of cuts the LP doesn't, and the LP is all I got, and it ain't on there. To be honest, the tune off that side I groove on and would immediately remember is "June Night", which is about as trioistical as you want it to be for this style. Piano's not necessarily in the best condition, but that often works for this style. It does here, for sure.

TRACK 2 - Well, you can't mistake Mel Torme, can you! Seriously, obviously Joe Williams, and the bassist sure plays those skips like Ray Brown. At first I was thinking Jay McShann on paino, but I got over that pretty quick. So...I don't know. One of Ray Brown's trios? Only Joe Williams could sing a song like this, talk about a Gold Card, not so subtly chide the audience on their vanillaness, and not lose a speck of credibility. He was one of a kind, and this is a fun cut.

TRACK 3 - Lou Donaldson. No mistaking that tone and phrasing. What album or who else, I haven't a clue. Probably an Argo album, casue the vinyl artifacts are delightfull in place. The tune's a "Stand By Me" cop, and the pianist sounds a bit generic, but pleasantly so. One thing's for sure, the drummer & bassist got it goin' in the pocket, just holding it right there, not puhing or pulling too much or not enough. THAT why a lot of people, including myself, groove on stuff like this - not because it's heavy in content, but just becasue the TIME feels so right, gets in just that right place and stays there. Lou could certainly play MORE alto than what he does here, but that's not his goal. His goal is to let the groove do the work and hum not fuck it up. An "artistic" cop out? Perhaps, but it's a good way to make a living, and besides, it's NOT as easy to do as you might think. More heralded players than Lou Donaldson have tried and failed to make simple, accesable music that's low in challenge yet high in sincerity. Can't say that this is the kind of thing I'd want too hear TOO often myself, but it's always welcome in my ears when it jumps up on me by surprise, like in a Blindfold Test.

TRACK 4 - Yet another instantly recognizable voice, this time Red Holloway, one of the unheralded badasses of the tenor. Doesn't matter what "style" music you play, you either control your instrument or it controls you, no in between (unfortunately...). The more you control it, the more you can do EXACTLY what it is you want to do, the badder a badass you are. I've never heard Red Holloway play anything that soounds like he didn't mean it 100%, either technically or emotionally. So hell yeah - Red Holloway is a TRUE badass, and one with a bit broader scope than this cut might suggest. As for the band, I haven't a clue. Again, "generic" (to be anything else in this style and still retain all the style's flavor is something that only older cats can do, and these guys don't sound all that old to me) but damn fine players, even if the drummer gets a tad excited at the beginning of his solo and seems to want to rush. Maybe he was having a laugh! But no matter - Red Holloway!

Track 5 - Mystery time! Sounds like a Vee-Jay side, possibly Argo, but more likely Vee-Jay. Is it the bass player's date? Firat tenor player sure sounds like Frank Wess to me. Altoist is heavily colored by Hodges, but not enough to fool me into thinking it's him. The little doubletime thing blows his cover totally! Second tenor gets into the Prez thing marvellously, then goes into his own zone even more marvellously. Budd Johnson? Anyway, I'm at a loss. My strongest lightbul comes on for who I think is Wess, but whoever it is, this is the real deal, stuff that's as natural for the players as breathing, and I LOVE it when that happens!

TRACK 6 - Dammit, I know this tune, but can't tell you the name of it. Sounds like a Dameron thing fersure. Definitely a Van Gelder recording, and fairly recent. Jimmy Heath on tenor, it sounds like. Slide Hampton? Cedar? Billy Higgins? Good stuff, nobody's going all out, but it's got a good beat and I can dance to it. Curious what else is on the album, sounds like a good'un.

TRACK 7 - "Billie's Bounce". The altoist sounds like either a Swing or Free or even R&B (splitting the difference) player for whom Bop is not their native tongue, but he's got soul and the message gets through loud and clear. Trumpet had me thinking Blue Mitchell, then Sweets Edison(!), then finally Howard McGhee. Rhythm section's got their groove on big time. Everybody sounds fine, like they're having a ball. It was fun listening to it, I can tell you that.

TRACK 8 - This one I have. Granted, a person in Houston is more likely to turn green when travelling westbound, but that's life.

TRACK 9 - Gorgeous tune, and a gorgeous tenor player. The tone reminds me of Teddy Edwards, as do those bent notes and the vocal intonation, but it's not QUITE as fluid in nature as Teddy's. Based on what little I've heard of Billy Mitchell, I could go that way. Other than that, I've not a clue. But DAMN what a great tune! I'm wanting this record NOW! Sounds like vets all around in every regard too. Piano solo is JUST Aa tad busy, but not seriously so. You GOT to be to do a tune like this like this.

TRACK 10 Nice tune. Pianist is OK, but a little too eager to get "bluesy". Don't recognize the tenor player. Don't care that much for the overall charcter of his tone, but there are moments where I do. Wierd... Bob Berg? Damn bass sound, too thin. I bet the guy's really got a nice tone, but you'll not get it here. A piece that leaves a better aftertaste than the actual chewing does, and that's something to consider. I'd like more time, and more of the album.

TRACK 11 - "Footprints", nicely colored by half-step harmonies. Nobody really distinctive jumps out after a few listens, it's kinda the new middle-of-the-road, but that's ok. No bullshit playing, everybody sounds real. Think I dug the drummer the most - he was really in the moment it seemed.

TRACK 12 - At first I thought "Kansas City", but then "Move To The Outskirts Of Town". Nice arranging, very well done. The writing doesn't display the personality of any one cat, but again, that's ok - it does what it needs to do and does it hiply. As for the organist, I don't have a clue. Something says "Ray Charles", but maybe that's an old episode of Jeopardy lingering in my subconsciousnesticarity...

TRACK 13- well, if that ain't "Lonely Avenue" (and it ain't), it's close enough to call a lawyer about! As on most all these cuts, the bassist and drummer stay in the poket in a way that renders what goes on on top a luxury that the piece can get by without well enough. This pianist sounds familiar, but I can't call a name right now. Tenor player is HEAVY into George Coleman, but sounds a bit liek he's speaking phonetically, getting all (well, most all) the words right, but missing the cadence and inflection that signify a native speaker. Eric Alexander? Or maybe George on a less than inspired day. But I don't think so. I'd like to hear the trio w/a different horn player in front. THEY got it goin' on!

All told, another most enjoyable selection of selections, and a few things I definitely want to check out more in-depth. Wish I could have more time to listen and reflect, but the Post Office screwed up, and results are going up soon, so this is a one take affair, I'm afraid. Now, to gop back and read the thread from the beginning and see how badly I botched the thing!

[JSngry]

Reading the responses made me go back and listen to #5 again, and I do detect the little Bird-esque stutter thing that Jerome Richardson was so fond of in the 2nd tenor player, so the Wilkins guess seems sound to me. Not really familiar w/his playing all that much though. If it's him, he sure does a good Rabbit impersonation!

[Soul Stream]

jim, you nailed number 8. I actually have this as well, but didn't remember this track. I'm still green with envy, the guitar playing really sparked my interest. I would have never guessed. Granted, it was pretty sloppy playing for him.

9. Is Teddy Edwards doing his original ballad, "Afraid of Love." He does a great version on the Jazz Scene USA video/DVD. If you don't have it...GET IT!~!!!!

[mikeweil]

TRACK 8 - This one I have. Granted, a person in Houston is more likely to turn green when travelling westbound, but that's life.

Seems you got a few right, Jim!

So far the following seem guessed right:

# 4 Red Holloway

# 5 Ernie Wilkins

# 6 Continuum

# 8 Houston Person

# 9 Teddy Edwards

# 12 Groove Holmes

Besides that, there are strong votes for

# 1 Three Sounds (which I doubt, at least it's not the Lighthouse CD)

# 2 Joe Williams

# 3 Lou Donaldson

I had Howard McGhee on my tongue for # 7 as well, but wasn't sure enough.

Dan your tastes have a stronng leaning towards .....