It's a Wonderful Organissimo Board

[AllenLowe]

"Jim, you're a mensch! "

hey Marcello, that's actually Yiddish for "aardvark's penis" -

[Christiern]

Thank you, Jim, for the post, even though it overwhelmed me with guilt (I have only contributed once, quite some time ago). That said, I think Clementine's post makes a lot of sense, we are a sufficient number of O addicts to keep this board going without anyone having to make a great financial sacrifice. As Clem suggests, we should take over the financial burden, including the band's part of the site. I is clear that most (of not all) of us have a need for the Big O and that we can solve the financial problem. I also think that moderators can be found among us and, if necessary, a rotation could be instituted. MG wondered if he could moderate from an overseas location--that should not be a problem, I believe Blindman's Blues has moderators on both sides of the Atlantic. Hey, outsourcing is in, isn't it?

I am still half asleep, Jim, but I'll get back when I can think more clearly. Anyway, y'all may count on me to do whatever I can to keep us alive and to relieve Jim of the burden.

BTW, our list now numbers 71 concerned O people.

[Bluerein]

Good initiative Allen. I'm in and indeed $10 a month isn't that much but if we all contribute it will be much less than that.

[MoGrubb]

......

***

THAT SAID: i think ALL your INTERNET costs should be covered by the board members; keeping the band site then is your "reward" (small, granted) for starting & maintaining the board all this time. i can't imagine anyone would balk at that.

.....(& good luck)

I'm in total agreement with Clementine.

This board has a feel like no other and I'd hate to see it go. I'd rather that the board continue, but, being a one-man operation, having to "beg" for contributions and maintaining interaction with your family would tax anyone's patience. I think we all understand if you want to just walk away.

Anyhow, you can count on me for a donation of $25+ per year, at least.

Have you considered selling advertising space? A couple of banners would be minimally obtrusive, and bring in a bit of bread.

[Van Basten II]

I never felt that the exchanges were that heated, i saw a lot worse from other sites. I do agree that when people start making threads about other people or themselves, it would have helped to have a moderator quickly shutting ithem down. As one of the naughty boys, i gotta say i always have some kicks about those thread but in the bigger scheme of things they're not a good thing. So, i understand the frustration.

As one of the relatively new boys, i disagree with the notion that newcomers were unwelcomed. I had no problem intergrating myself to the group, here's a tip newbies, put a hot babe as an avatar , seriously i tried to respect people and take them for what they are and they did the same in return.

[Dan Gould]

A couple of observations:

On the question of the political forum as a "steam valve". If you really don't want politics discussed, its simple: No politics becomes the rule. Blindman's forum follows this and their mods spot and close threads that head in a political direction immediately. Closing the politics forum does not mean that politics will seep in to the rest of the board - it means that the people who take over as moderators simply have to enforce the rules.

And speaking of that, I had a discussion with someone from that board: Tom Rushen. He had a problem with a Mosaic set and people suggested he post here about it. He basically stated that he could not tolerate this place, because of the way political commentary appears in every forum. The fact is that some people here do slip in little digs and comments and references, and it does drive people away.

So there is some food for thought.

Second, it seems to me that we need to do a yearly pledge drive with the goal of covering the entire yearly cost of the board. I realize its a little late to begin, but with the "crisis" situation, I am sure that people would pull together and cover the $1800 needed. The money goes into Jim's account, if its an interest earning account, he keeps it.

Several advantages:

Fewer "free riders". If x-number of people commit to $10 monthly, others will think "well, we're covered." More people contribute, more money is collected.

Unlike a PBS pledge drive, this would not be an annoyance. It would be an annual reminder that its time to express your appreciation of the place, and if a tote board or a tote-thread could be established, we can keep people reminded of what is needed to reach the goal of covering one more year of board operation.

Last but not least, on a personal note, Goodspeak and 7/4 will now and forever remain on my Ignore list, without exception. They can goad me all they want, you have my word that I will not engage them in any way, shape or form. I don't pretend that I am in any way blameless in that situation, so its time to step up and do what needs to be done.

[JohnS]

I was quite happy until 30 minutes ago when I started on this thread - now I'm depressed. I've ben here from the start and apart from doing my best to run AOTW I'm not a big poster, mainly just making recommendations and comments when appropriate. But this board has become a massive and essential part of my jazz life, I've found out about numerous good things I wouldn't have come across elsewhere and made a few friends along the way so I don't want to see it go. I'm all for a subscrition if that's what's needed to keep it running. If it is too late then all I can say is thank you Jim but hopefully something will be worked out which will enable us to stay together.

[porcy62]

A few personal thoughts about the Forum.

I am not a musician, nor a jazz expert, so my contributions might have been not fundamental on the "academic" side, but I loved to share with you more then my expertise about specific subjects.

Some members, Jim included, shared much more then musical stuff, often very personal feelings and concerns and happiness and tragic things. That is what kept me in for such long time.

All this makes the forum some sort of "family", not a cheap "cybercommunity" where people could carry virtual lifes under fake identity. Maybe I am wrong, but I feel I met "real" persons here.

One of the reasons for it is that Jim, as moderator, allowed us to express ourselves in a light and skillfull way.

As in a real family, fightings are unavoidable. As you all know for personal experience in your life you lost friend and wife/husband and relatives for fighting, often for good reasons, often for apparently stupid reasons, but so it goes.

Now the strenght of the family is not to keep togheter all the members, by any means aka with strict rules, or "netiquette". A family is much more then the sum of its members. A family is a place where conflicts can be solved or not, but is a place where one can return and are welcomed.

The fact that some left is sad, but unavoidable, unless Jim decide a strict code of behavior, that, from my point of view, would make this forum like any others out there.

I wish to ask you a question: Do you really think that we would be so concerned about this forum, as it appeared in this thread, if we didn't feel some "love" for each others? If Brownie or Chuck or JSangry or Clem or Aloc or Conrad or Allen would have respected a strict code like in SH forum, without showing their wit, their political POV, in one word their "character", this would be another dull forum, though very informative, about jazz. A Google-like place where one can search a subject or ask a question, waiting for the answer of the experts.

I mean that I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't learned a lot of things about your feeling and your countries and your family and I wouldn't be sympathetic in your personal life.

When I was arguing with J.A.W. he said "left our personal life out of this", well, I think he got the point: most of us didn't left their personal life out of here. Obviously there are more reserved members, like in the real world, people are different, but we are like a family.

Now we face a problem, the "father" Jim became a father and obviously his real family deserves him full time.

The point is to transform a family in a community where Jim has not to bear the whole responsabilty of the forum.

A Council of Moderators could be a way, if everybody recognize to them the "moral" authority for it.

And changing name of the forum could be another way if the Band thinks the forum could harms its reputation to some extent.

Sorry for The Sermon, J.Smith's one is better.

[Dan Gould]

One other thought regarding moderators:

We don't need gorts who will make unilateral decisions. A group of people should be chosen as moderators, one for each sub-forum. Those people should do things like they do at Blindman's: if something comes up, the moderators discuss it amongst themselves and then make a decision, whether to close a thread or delete or edit a post.

In all honesty, I don't think that this type of moderation is necessary, if the decision is made to keep the board essentially as it is. Moderators will change the feel of the place. The best choice may be to remind people what is expected in their posting behavior, and when people deviate with excessive profanity or personal attacks, perhaps posting privileges get suspended?

I know it sounds a lot like getting a "time out" but when you think of the way Jim has run the place, it really is a lot like a house over-run with kids and then out of the blue, the fist of doom comes down and people say "whaaat? Why??? I didn't do anything!" Think of the Babe thread when Jim suddenly closed it.

I'm just throwing out ideas here ...

[JSngry]

I'm good for (at least) whatever individual financial commitment is decided upon.

I have no idea whether or not I'm one of the "selected few" for whom this is perceived as being a "playground", but if I am, then I'd like nothing more than to keep my playground open. And if I'm not, well then I want to be!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

MG wondered if he could moderate from an overseas location--that should not be a problem, I believe Blindman's Blues has moderators on both sides of the Atlantic. Hey, outsourcing is in, isn't it?

Moderation, which I know can be done remotely, is only part of the time burden falling on Jim. And apparently only a small element, since I seldom detect much going on except for threads being merged sometimes (apart from this week). I suspect, but don't know, that pure admin stuff like registering new members and whatever (and I don't know what's in "whatever") might be more time-consuming. And in addition, there are operational matters, like backup and system integrity that seem to me to be necessarily carried out where the computers physically are.

We're working towards a solution here, but the money's only part of it. He's actually got two full time jobs - being a musician, practicing and so on, and being a parent.

MG

[indigo]

Seeing this topic prompted me to log in for the first time in ages, years maybe. I never said much and have visited only occasionally over the last couple of years, but my life would be diminished if this place were to disappear. I've made friends here and, when time permits, I come by and prowl around in a hopeless attempt to catch up. Sometimes I come back just to read the paeans to Prez.

Having been a mod and an admin at another forum, where the duties were shared among about 10 people, I quake to think of what a burden it's been for Jim to handle all the duties. Even if a place largely self-mods, as this one does, running a forum is deceptively time-consuming. That Jim has set this place up so beautifully and kept it going for so long is simply astonishing, all the more so in light of all the other demands on his energies.

For sure the money problem can be solved. I see estimates of 40-60 heavy users. There must be at least two or three times as many members who are regular visitors and a bunch of irregulars like me, who would be willing to support the operation. An average of ten bucks A YEAR from most of those folks would cover the costs. That's less than a dollar a month to keep this resource alive.

Somehow the word needs to get out. It's only by coincidence that I visited today and only an accident that my eyeballs landed on this topic. There must be plenty of others who popped in today, took a quick look at one of the sections and buzzed out without ever noticing a crisis in the making. Once a money-raising scheme is agreed to, it may be time to call on the board's mass mail function to contact all members. People won't contribute unless they know there's a need. I favor a yearly fund-raising campaign because it would spread the load more widely or, to put it another way, give more people a chance to participate.

[rockefeller center]

And in addition, there are operational matters, like backup and system integrity that seem to me to be necessarily carried out where the computers physically are.

Not true.

[Bright Moments]

One other thought regarding moderators:

A group of people should be chosen as moderators, one for each sub-forum.

i'll do the classical sub-forum!!! oh, never mind.

but seriously, why don't we all help produce the next organissimo cd with $100.00 per person sponsorships?

[king ubu]

Hey, I haven't read this all through yet, but I'd certainly be willing to pay *if* it helps/changes anything... but we'd have to hear from Jim first, maybe he just feels like not going through that hassle with all of us any longer?

Anyway, I've been here from the start, I've enjoyed it a lot for quite some time, there have been better and worse times, and I think recently it was one of the later periods, rather than a great one, but still... I'd feel kind of homeless in the cybersphere if this forum was to disappear (would there be at least a way to store it somewhere, inactively, just so all the info and knowledge was still around? I see that the save-topic function is not working for long topics, it just saves the first posts and cuts off the rest... It would be too bad to see it all go!)

I've made friends here with some very kind persons, have been able to stay at brownie's in Paris, have met mikeweil, rockefeller center, jug21, Tom Storer and D.D. (missing in action) in person and would look forward to meet more of you yurpeens in person - if I ever cross the channel, I certainly have to hook up with his bobness, misters Shelton, Fenton and the magniloquent one somehow... also some of the Italians like porcy & eloe, and more of the Frenchmen like recent member aparxa and more of those German chaps like Niko and neveronanyday etc. would be cool to meet in person, and there are many others living much farther away that I'd like to meet in person, too, of course!

If any of you happens to drop by or stopover in Zurich (Switzerland, not Texas, Montana, North Carolina, or wherever), let me know and we'll have a bunch of beers together (wine & dine for brownie, that is!)

Anyway, I can be contacted at: flurin[dot]casura[at]bluewin[dot]ch

You can also check out my blog and get in touch with me over there: http://ubu-space.blogspot.com

As for subscriptions, I'd be all for it... maybe it could be done some way to also allow in newbies, like, get the first month for free, get 1 month for 5$, three for 12$, a year for 30$ or something like that, and anyone could proceed as he felt like, those wanting to pay more could just do quarterly subscriptions all of the time, or pay 50$ for one year etc.

I'm sure we could raise enough funds that way!

And count me in among those who *usually* don't see much need for moderators, but sometimes would be happy with some *moderation* - that wouldn't get much better if we had more moderators around here, though, I'm afraid...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

And in addition, there are operational matters, like backup and system integrity that seem to me to be necessarily carried out where the computers physically are.

Not true.

I bow to greater expertise and I'm glad to hear it.

MG

[JSngry]

A personal noted to Jim - I definitely feel your pain with the frustration of the music business. The gig "scene" continues to deteriorate, and without a/some creative outlet(s) (or sometimes with...) to balance out the bullshit, you definitely risk losing your soul while you think you're saving it.

The "straight world" is that it is every bit as loaded with traps and distractions to take you away from who you really are, that's no secret. But the bottom line is that any world where you work for somebody else is, and that definitely includes ours.

Music is a blessing, the music business a curse. Finding a way to balance those out requires living your life as an artform unto itself. It can be done, bt it gets pretty wiggy sometimes. And I'm sure there's plenty of people in other fields who can legitmately say the same thing. But our case is a special one, because we're musicians, and musicians are special.

Good luck.

[jazzbo]

That's really true JS.

Jim A, thanks for the post last night.

There are lots of persons posting good suggestions here, and I bet there are persons sending you messages and paypal donations as well. Here's hoping we can keep the ship in the wind.

If not, whatever transpires, just know that the moderation of this board has made it THE place for me. I've even been banned from another board in part by always stating I "prefer" this board. The philosophy and practice of moderation held and performed by you and the other moderators should be an example to every board in the world.

On top of that, in the last two years or more when my personal life was one series of difficult experiences after another, this board was an anchor and a comfort for me that I needed AND appreciated.

Best of all to all from here forward.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

If not, whatever transpires, just know that the moderation of this board has made it THE place for me. I've even been banned from another board in part by always stating I "prefer" this board. The philosophy and practice of moderation held and performed by you and the other moderators should be an example to every board in the world.

I endorse that statement absolutely.

MG

[catesta]

If not, whatever transpires, just know that the moderation of this board has made it THE place for me. I've even been banned from another board in part by always stating I "prefer" this board. The philosophy and practice of moderation held and performed by you and the other moderators should be an example to every board in the world.

I endorse that statement absolutely.

MG

[marcello]

"Jim, you're a mensch! "

hey Marcello, that's actually Yiddish for "aardvark's penis" -

And that's a bad thing?

My 2 cents:

There's a old saying that you should never discuss relogion or politics with relatives. That may apply here.

Keep it to music; No Sports, No News, No Politics etc.

There are lots of other places to go for that talk.

Just keep it to music that we love and you'll see a lot of stupid and hateful shit go away.

To pay for your expenses, make it a subcription after 30 days or so.

That will let people try it out for a time and test the water and filter out some of the nut cases, who will go away if they have to pay for their opinions to be aired.

At AAJ, there are some very nice people, but they have opted to have strict monitoring. It works for them but recently I was asked to delete a pretty benign comment I made when I said a post was " lame and ignorant". I thought that was a little puritanical, but gthat's the rules they operate by, and I respect that.

[John L]

Can we set up an easy and secure way to make credit card donations over the internet?

Don't you think the "Donate"-function (link on the top right of the page) is enough? I suppose most of us have a Paypal account.

Yes, I suppose so. But I never noticed it before. Actually, I don't have a Paypal account (mine got cancelled under mysterious circumstances), but I imagine that I can set one up.

Edited December 5, 2007 by John L

[Claude]

was wondering, also, if paypal will do an auto pay thing and deduct every month -

Yes, this feature exists. From the Paypal Help pages:

What is PayPal Subscriptions and Recurring Payments?

PayPal Subscriptions and Recurring Payments lets you accept recurring payments for your service.

You can create customized subscription buttons to place in the HTML code of your website; your subscribers will press the button and be taken to secure PayPal payment pages where they can make initial payments (if necessary) and set up any future payments for the subscription. PayPal Subscriptions and Recurring Payments is a Premier and Business account feature.

[wulfman]

Thanks Jim for the post and thanks for making this BB what it is. I have a baby girl, almost 1-yr old and can relate to the time that you want to be able to spend with her. I am a long-time lurker, occasionally adding something where I can to the great O-board show. I just sent a donation, whether it is a down payment on the future or just clears up my overdue bar tab remains to be seen. Hope the board lives on AND you find the time you need.

[Joe G]

Seems to me there is a win-win situation in the making.