It's a Wonderful Organissimo Board

[AllenLowe]

and I'll bet we can hit up some places for sponsorship $$$ - look at all the money people here spend on Mosaic, for just one example -

[Bright Moments]

Would love to go to a day-long show featuring all of our board-member musicians!

Allen Lowe

Paul McKee

Paul Abella Trio

Quartet Out

David Beardsley

Mike Weil

Frank Kimbrough

Phil Grenadier

Root Doctor

Organissimo

Who am I forgetting?

That would be a cool show! Chicago, next summer!

Deep

[djcavanagh]

I too have been more of a lurker than a contributer but I feel that I have gained immeasurably from logging on practically everyday. I'm delighted that it sounds as if it is going to survive but ultimately Jim needs to do what is best for him and his family - I confess that my initial reaction on reading his first post was that he should just jack it in.

I have always been surprised at the level of vitriol that is displayed (and I don't even look at the Politics forum (being a dyed-in-the-wool socialist I figured a mainly American forum wouldn't be the best bet). I naively assumed that the things that we have in common as jazz fans would outweigh our differences.

I would be happy ot make a regular subscription (although I don't believe that subscribers should gain additional benefits of any description) but can understand that the fees may make this ption prohibitively expensive. I will make a donation now and can only apologise that I haven't done so more in the past. Given the money I have "saved" from being informed of the various sales going on everywhere (especially 2001!!) it is the least that I can do (although my wife would probably argue that it is't a saving if I hadn't intended to buy the music in the first place!).

Good luck in whatever you decide Jim.

[Bright Moments]

$30.00 just donated - c'mon folks its fast and easy!

[Dan Gould]

A check will be en route tomorrow - I'd rather Jim get all of my contribution.

[7/4]

And speaking of that, I had a discussion with someone from that board: Tom Rushen. He had a problem with a Mosaic set and people suggested he post here about it. He basically stated that he could not tolerate this place, because of the way political commentary appears in every forum. The fact is that some people here do slip in little digs and comments and references, and it does drive people away.

Evidence?

[king ubu]

and maybe a human sacrifice -

any volunteers? (hint, hint)

[king ubu]

And speaking of that, I had a discussion with someone from that board: Tom Rushen. He had a problem with a Mosaic set and people suggested he post here about it. He basically stated that he could not tolerate this place, because of the way political commentary appears in every forum. The fact is that some people here do slip in little digs and comments and references, and it does drive people away.

Evidence?

I really don't see that as a problem... rather seems unlikely to me that this will not happen... remember that old chap who said mankind was a "zoon politkon" or something like that? To me, it would be less fun without at least having the possibility to post something else than jazz-related stuff... sure, we can all try and not make these little remarks, but no way you can just stop that totally. What *is* boring though is the continuing US-american navel-gaze in the politics forum (please, no, this is *not* a politic remark... it's a mere observation... if someone from some other area posts something in there, it's ignored more often than not, while the american topics just go merry-go-round... but then I guess that reflects the actual situation [now it's getting political, now I stop] << see these rooster[parenthes]ism? He he, where is he anyway, it wasn't him who started the fundraising poll!?!)

[vibes]

Just sent in a donation. Thanks again, Jim.

[RDK]

or we could have a gladiator fight - everybody who's battled it out here...last one left standing gets to dance with Berigan -

I'd pay money to see that. But I hear Berigan has two right feet.

[AllenLowe]

well, ok, I'll be the sacrifice, but just this once...

[RDK]

And speaking of that, I had a discussion with someone from that board: Tom Rushen. He had a problem with a Mosaic set and people suggested he post here about it. He basically stated that he could not tolerate this place, because of the way political commentary appears in every forum. The fact is that some people here do slip in little digs and comments and references, and it does drive people away.

Evidence?

The thing is - and I know this will sound selfish and self-serving but so what - I'd rather not have people that sensitive even hanging around here. It's also a silly and incorrect statement: political commentary does not appear in every forum. Everyone is certainly more than welcome to hang out at the bar, toss some darts, and shoot the shit, but if you'e a teetotaler who doesn't like darts and bars... well maybe this isn't the place for you. In much the same way Jazz Corner isn't for me.

[Hot Ptah]

well, ok, I'll be the sacrifice, but just this once...

I read a news article recently about newly discovered evidence that the Incas ritually sacrificed children by getting them drunk on alcoholic beverages and leaving them to die in the cold of exposure.

The alcohol would be easy to arrange, and Wisconsin is cold and close to Chicago....

However, a drunken person passed out on the ground in Wisconsin in the middle of winter would just be considered a good ol' boy there. The main question that the police would have is, where did this guy's snowmobile go to.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Hot Ptah

[7/4]

And speaking of that, I had a discussion with someone from that board: Tom Rushen. He had a problem with a Mosaic set and people suggested he post here about it. He basically stated that he could not tolerate this place, because of the way political commentary appears in every forum. The fact is that some people here do slip in little digs and comments and references, and it does drive people away.

Evidence?

The thing is - and I know this will sound selfish and self-serving but so what - I'd rather not have people that sensitive even hanging around here. It's also a silly and incorrect statement: political commentary does not appear in every forum. Everyone is certainly more than welcome to hang out at the bar, toss some darts, and shoot the shit, but if you'e a teetotaler who doesn't like darts and bars... well maybe this isn't the place for you. In much the same way Jazz Corner isn't for me.

I thought so too.

[eeegor]

If Jim decides to keep this board going (and I believe that decision is his and his alone), I move that any non-music sub-forums be deleted immediately. There's seriously two guys arguing in a baseball thread? These what I like to call 'first-world issues', and they need to stop, as they are so ridiculous it boggles my mind.

While I would support a pay feature, I would also expect some user bannings, as people arguing over baseball and political threads have other places to take their nonsense rather than a music board.

Should the board stay, Jim should also pick any moderators.

Edited December 5, 2007 by eeegor

[Claude]

And speaking of that, I had a discussion with someone from that board: Tom Rushen. He had a problem with a Mosaic set and people suggested he post here about it. He basically stated that he could not tolerate this place, because of the way political commentary appears in every forum. The fact is that some people here do slip in little digs and comments and references, and it does drive people away.

Evidence?

The thing is - and I know this will sound selfish and self-serving but so what - I'd rather not have people that sensitive even hanging around here. It's also a silly and incorrect statement: political commentary does not appear in every forum. Everyone is certainly more than welcome to hang out at the bar, toss some darts, and shoot the shit, but if you'e a teetotaler who doesn't like darts and bars... well maybe this isn't the place for you. In much the same way Jazz Corner isn't for me.

I agree. People should just ignore these things. I read and post in the Steve Hoffman forum, for the information and technical opinions that are communicated, although I am aware that most of the posters there are politically very conservative.

An internet forum is not a community of friends, but a community of people who share the same hobby. You don't need to be on the same wavelength with them in order to participate in the discussions.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

An internet forum is not a community of friends, but a community of people who share the same hobby. You don't need to be on the same wavelength with them in order to participate in the discussions.

Too sane, too sane.

MG

[Guest Bill Barton]

...The financial part is well documented. The current costs to host this site with CIHost, based in Texas, is $99 per month for a dedicated server and $50 a month for weekly back-ups of that server. Hosting your average website is cheap, yes, but when you move the amount of data around that we are, you not only use up your monthly bandwidth quickly, you also move extremely slow. Remember when this board dogged like crazy? That was because it was on a shared server for awhile. Sure, it only cost $20 a month, but with the current 600+mb database and numerous people visiting every day, you'd reach any limits very fast. So a dedicated server is a must. And having backups is a must.

I've gone through the numbers in public here before, but the bulk of this site is paid for by the band through CD sales from CDBaby and any money from the search bar above linked to Amazon and CDUniverse. Not much comes down that pipeline; maybe $20 every two months. CDBaby sales vary but average around $50 a month. Sometimes we don't sell any for the month. Whatever is left comes directly out of my pocket.

There's no question that we have to do something about this situation. And from the looks of how this thread has progressed there is light at the end of the tunnel for you (and it's not the headlight of a freight train!)

So, $150 a month doesn't sound like much, I realize. But to me it is. I have been playing music all my life. I've been a full-time musician, with no other income, since 2001. In the past six years I've seen gas go from $1.25 a gallon to darn near triple that. I am making the same amount of money, on average per gig, that my dad was when he was a full-time musician 30 years ago. He was able support a wife and five kids on that income. He finally got tired of being out all night, and became a piano technician and eventually had two more kids.

I could not support my family on the income I make and I only have one child. The only reason I'm not homeless is because my wife works. She is the main bread-winner, but even so we live month to month. I'm not telling this for sympathy, just to try to explain my situation. Yes, my situation is my choice, a choice that I am seriously reconsidering right now. The music industry has always been hard but this year was one of the worst years as far as gigging goes that I've ever seen. And I don't see it getting better any time soon. Everybody is scraping. I just played a gig tonight for $80 at a college bar where everybody was pissed off at us because we were playing while they were trying to watch MSU basketball on ESPN. $80 to haul a Hammond organ and Leslie through the snow and be out until 2:00am, away from my family, around unappreciative drunks...

On the outside looking in the music "business" sometimes appears to be the proverbial bed of roses. What could be better than doing what you love to support yourself? Your mention of making the same amount of money your dad did 30 years ago is the real kicker. I'm sure that you're not alone in that boat! It's a bitch, no question about it. When I think of some of the immensely talented musicians I've known over the years who exist at the very bottom rung of what's considered poverty level it's sobering. From personal experience I can vouch for the fact that being homeless is no fun. You need to do whatever is necessary to alleviate the financial burden of the board, Jim. If board members can come up with the needed funds I'm sure that something will work out in the end.

...How many new members are we getting? When those members post, are they welcomed or instantly ridiculed? Is this a boys club with a special handshake or an open forum that welcomes new people?

I have expressed this before, but sometimes I feel like this place is playground for a select few. I want people to feel comfortable here. I want people to want to join in the discussions. I want people to feel welcomed. I do not like the clique-ishness that is evident here sometimes.

I've been a member since 2003 but until very recently was not active as a contributor/poster. I started frequenting online boards when Jazz Central Station was in existence and was pretty active on the old Blue Note board for awhile (too bad Jim Anderson didn't migrate over here when the BNBB folded - those engineering discussions were my favorites!) I've been a member of Jazz Corner's Speakeasy damned near forever (since the demise of JCS) and have been active there off and on for about as long, except for a couple of years when I had no computer access. For a little while I frequented the All About Jazz board but lost interest quickly - it's always struck me as pretty damned boring although there are some nice folks who hang there. There's a certain element of clique-ishness in all of these places I think. Maybe this is a case of stating the obvious, but jazz fans are passionate and opinionated. And it takes awhile to get used to peoples' personalities. Avatars and emoticons are a poor substitute for face-to-face conversation. For what it's worth, I never felt any real animosity or clique-based eltism when I became more active here. Granted, one of my first experiences was the rather extended tussle with Clem on Lazaro's Signal to Noise thread, but I have no hard feelings over that. He has his opinion and I have mine.

...Would subscriptions then push away even more people? Who pays a subscription vs. who doesn't? What does the subscriber get that the others don't? Or should they be voluntary subscribers?...

My personal feeling is that voluntary subscriptions/donations would be the way to go. I recently fired off a PayPal donation and when finances allow will send another. Maybe when I get the next gigantic payment from CODA!

...I would like less personal attacks and less name calling. I would like people to use the features of this software (like the ignore function) and exercise self-control. I would like more problems between members to be dealt with via PMs, instead of airing your dirty laundry to everyone. The jazz community is small enough as it is; do we really need to piss on each other?...

Well said! In my relatively brief time here I haven't really noticed any major name-calling or personal attacks. I ignore the political threads anyway. Hell, I get pissed off enough just reading the morning paper and checking out the BBC news!

Another thing that has been gnawing at me: As some of you know, Zora broke her elbow three weeks ago. I was in the room when it happened. I saw her leap off the chair. I was not paying attention to her, I was absorbed with my playing, practicing the organ. Nobody thinks it is my fault. But I still feel guilty about it because I was not paying attention to her.

Several times today she got upset at me because I wasn't listening to her. My mind was somewhere else, even though she was in the room trying to interact with me.

God, I do not want to be the distant dad. This board is one of several distractions in my life that I personally need to get a handle on. I spend too much time on the computer and not enough time interacting with Zora, writing music, writing poetry, talking with my wife, etc. This is something that I must change.

This place takes a lot of time to manage. I do like the idea of moderators. I do not know who to enlist for that job...

For once I agree with Tim aka Goodspeak on this one. You're right on the money that family needs to come first. And creative outlets.

edc doesn't post in the personal threads but i was thinking that elbow thing would freak you out, Jim. hang in there; i've got musician friends all over the country in similar or worse boats, not that communal suffering makes it any easier on you...

THAT SAID: i think ALL your internet costs should be covered by the board members; keeping the band site then is your "reward" (small, granted) for starting & maintaining the board all this time. i can't imagine anyone would balk at that.

Agreed!

...i think i miss most of the battles i'm not involved in but i think we've done well without moderators to date, maybe designating a second supermoderator you trust but having teams and all that... it becomes more work, & a petit bureacracy. a happy anarchy like we have here can get a little frisky but it's better than all alternatives, really...

Agreed again!

The only realistic way most of us can help is through voluntary donations. Subscription only has it's merits but it effectively keeps out almost all newcomers. Maybe Jim can can post a suggested donation or we can pony up say $25.00 on January 1, 2008 with the idea of sending a similar amount every three months. Jim can let us know if that covers things. If it's inadequate we increase.

This sounds very logical to me.

I think getting rid of baseball, on the national level, would be a big step in the right direction -

Now we're talkin'!!!!! And while we're at it, getting rid of pro football, pro basketball and pro hockey would calm things down considerably. Let's replace 'em all with women's beach volleyball.

I never felt that the exchanges were that heated, i saw a lot worse from other sites. I do agree that when people start making threads about other people or themselves, it would have helped to have a moderator quickly shutting ithem down. As one of the naughty boys, i gotta say i always have some kicks about those thread but in the bigger scheme of things they're not a good thing. So, i understand the frustration.

As one of the relatively new boys, i disagree with the notion that newcomers were unwelcomed. I had no problem intergrating myself to the group, here's a tip newbies, put a hot babe as an avatar , seriously i tried to respect people and take them for what they are and they did the same in return.

As I mentioned earlier, I agree wholeheartedly. And on the avatar front... She definitely is easy on the eyes.

A few personal thoughts about the Forum.

I am not a musician, nor a jazz expert, so my contributions might have been not fundamental on the "academic" side, but I loved to share with you more then my expertise about specific subjects.

Some members, Jim included, shared much more then musical stuff, often very personal feelings and concerns and happiness and tragic things. That is what kept me in for such long time.

All this makes the forum some sort of "family", not a cheap "cybercommunity" where people could carry virtual lifes under fake identity. Maybe I am wrong, but I feel I met "real" persons here.

One of the reasons for it is that Jim, as moderator, allowed us to express ourselves in a light and skillfull way.

As in a real family, fightings are unavoidable. As you all know for personal experience in your life you lost friend and wife/husband and relatives for fighting, often for good reasons, often for apparently stupid reasons, but so it goes.

Now the strenght of the family is not to keep togheter all the members, by any means aka with strict rules, or "netiquette". A family is much more then the sum of its members. A family is a place where conflicts can be solved or not, but is a place where one can return and are welcomed.

The fact that some left is sad, but unavoidable, unless Jim decide a strict code of behavior, that, from my point of view, would make this forum like any others out there.

I wish to ask you a question: Do you really think that we would be so concerned about this forum, as it appeared in this thread, if we didn't feel some "love" for each others? If Brownie or Chuck or JSangry or Clem or Aloc or Conrad or Allen would have respected a strict code like in SH forum, without showing their wit, their political POV, in one word their "character", this would be another dull forum, though very informative, about jazz. A Google-like place where one can search a subject or ask a question, waiting for the answer of the experts.

I mean that I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't learned a lot of things about your feeling and your countries and your family and I wouldn't be sympathetic in your personal life.

When I was arguing with J.A.W. he said "left our personal life out of this", well, I think he got the point: most of us didn't left their personal life out of here. Obviously there are more reserved members, like in the real world, people are different, but we are like a family.

Now we face a problem, the "father" Jim became a father and obviously his real family deserves him full time.

The point is to transform a family in a community where Jim has not to bear the whole responsabilty of the forum.

A Council of Moderators could be a way, if everybody recognize to them the "moral" authority for it.

And changing name of the forum could be another way if the Band thinks the forum could harms its reputation to some extent.

Sorry for The Sermon, J.Smith's one is better.

No need for apologies. This is one of the most heartfelt things I've yet read on this thread. And I too have experienced a community feeling generated on this site. As you point out, it's more than "knowledge" or "information" based, though there's certainly no lack of either here.

...Despite a few blackheads, this board is still the most stunningly gorgeous jazz face on the internet.

[porcy62]

And speaking of that, I had a discussion with someone from that board: Tom Rushen. He had a problem with a Mosaic set and people suggested he post here about it. He basically stated that he could not tolerate this place, because of the way political commentary appears in every forum. The fact is that some people here do slip in little digs and comments and references, and it does drive people away.

Evidence?

The thing is - and I know this will sound selfish and self-serving but so what - I'd rather not have people that sensitive even hanging around here. It's also a silly and incorrect statement: political commentary does not appear in every forum. Everyone is certainly more than welcome to hang out at the bar, toss some darts, and shoot the shit, but if you'e a teetotaler who doesn't like darts and bars... well maybe this isn't the place for you. In much the same way Jazz Corner isn't for me.

I agree. People should just ignore these things. I read and post in the Steve Hoffman forum, for the information and technical opinions that are communicated, although I am aware that most of the posters there are politically very conservative.

An internet forum is not a community of friends, but a community of people who share the same hobby. You don't need to be on the same wavelength with them in order to participate in the discussions.

I think just the opposite: that an internet forum is became a community of friends that share the same hobby. At least this is the main reason because I don't want this forum gone. As Conrad said: where can you find a place where you can talk about Charlie Parker, Astronaut's Sex, Hillary and Obama and the best sauce for hot dog at the same time?

[marcello]

Don't have a paypal account, so I just sent Jim a check.

Just in case anyone else wants to do it that way, it's:

Jim Alfredson - Organissimo

P.O. Box 16129

Lansing, Mi. 48901 - 6129

You an also use a regular ole' credit card through PayPal, like I did last month for the Organissimo cause.

Jim, might I suggest a bi-annual fund raiser?

[Joe G]

Bill: Jim Anderson did indeed migrate over here. The "Ask the Engineer" thread is buried somewhere, but hasn't been very active lately.

[marcello]

Some of us have "products" of our own making (Books, CDs, etc.) that could be offered each month to a lucky drawer among the subscribers. It need not be restricted to our own work, anyone could donate something of interest to be the month's prize(s).

Just another thought.

Let me add a thanks to Conrad--I just spotted your post.

Chris, this is also a excellent idea.

I can contribute cds, photos and other music packages like live shows from time to time.

[Sundog]

Just a simple thank you to Jim for maintaining this wonderful board over the years. It's been well over a year since I've donated in any fashion. That said, the check is in the mail (or will be tomorrow morning).

Additionally...

Is anyone interesting in a mint unopened copy of The Complete Blue Note Sam Rivers Sessions (Mosaic MD3-167)?

All you have to do is donate between now and the end of the year, and you will be entered in a random drawing for a chance to receive this wonderful set. No strings attached, it's that easy! Consider it a small token offered up on Jim's behalf in appreciation for all your kind support.

P.S. All donations pledged since the inception of this thread, and received by year's end eligible.

[Big Al]

I have nothing to donate in terms of "donation swag," so I will offer to stay away from the Board if y'all raise the necessary monthly fees!

(That oughta get the bread flowing in pretty!)

[Big Al]

BTW, I was visited by a 900-foot-tall AllenLowe last night and he sayeth, and I quoteth, "Raise for me $50,000 to keep thee Organissimo Board going, or I shall take thee home." And I said, "Heaven?" and AllenLowe said, "No, you fool, Chicago."

So, y'all better do what the man says, dig?