Kenny Dorham Memorial Album

[troyk]

I don't have my hands on this record yet and I have a couple of questions that could be answered with the liner notes. Could someone with access to them please raise their emoticon hand?

Question #1

Who is credited as the composer on "Butch's Blues"?

Question #2

Do they explain this session? All Music has it listed as a compilation, but with a single recording date and a single rhythm section. The recording date is also 12 years before his death, so I'm guessing that because it's on Xanadu, it was a lost in the vaults session released posthumously and their facts are just not that crisp.

I'm looking for a copy for myself, but my thirst for knowledge can't wait.

By the way, is there a method for submitting corrections to All Music? I've found some other things. I learn a lot from there, but I could fix a few things for them too.

Thanks in advance for this.

Troy

Edited December 3, 2007 by troyk

[brownie]

Troy, the session was originally released on Jaro after it was recorded on January 10, 1960.

The liner notes by Na Hentoff state that 'Kenny Dorham wrote Butch's Blues for bassist Warren'.

Xanadu reissued this as 'Kenny Dorham Memorial Album' much later.

[Big Beat Steve]

One of those big-money (though non-Blue Note items on eBay, that original JARO issue.

Weird record titles, BTW. Jaro issued it as the "arrival" (though, as far as leader dates were concerned, KD had arrived before that date) and Xanadu issued the same music to commemorate the "departure".

Beats me how AMG could claim it is a "compilation". The usual discographies have the right answers.

As for that "Memorial" tag on Xanadu, that's not something to go by at all.

AFAIR the "Sonny Clark Memorial Album" on Xanadu did include previously unreleased club recordings from Sweden indeed sow as something new for the occasion but on the other hand the "Bill Harris Memorial Album" on Xanadu in fact is a reissue of a date originally done for MODE in 1957.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Big Beat Steve

[brownie]

One of those big-money (though non-Blue Note items on eBay, that original JARO issue.

Oh yes! Saw a couple of the originals KD Jaros in my vinyl-buying days but the copies were both in less than VG condition and their prices were way too high!

I settled with the FreshSound LP reissue which looked (and sounded) betteran than the Xanadu LP!

[Big Beat Steve]

I've had the Xanadu reissue since 1984 (must have been fairly newly released though it was found in a student campus fleamarket bin) and strangely enough never came across the Fresh Sound vinyl reissue though I've bought and actively looked for PLENTY of these facsimile reissues.

[mikeweil]

The Fresh Sound vinyl reissue, btw, was the first release of the stereo tapes of this LP!

The Fresh Sound CD currently available also has the stereo version.

This is a very nice album ...

[troyk]

All right, then, thanks guys. That answers my questions asked. Some questions not asked, some questions implied (was this the 5th creditied Butch Warren composition on record, which is what I was really after), but not the obvious one that I neither asked nor implied. Is it a good record? Where one my list of "looking for" should I order it?

Thanks again.

I love posting some obscure question and waking up to a bunch of good info, I hope to return the favor some day.

This is actually not the only problem I've found on All Music in the course of this research. I'll save them up and then write in to them.

[bertrand]

Since I have been seeing Butch on a regular basis in the last few months, your last post piqued my curiosity, to say the least. What leads you to believe that there may be a 5th recorded Warren composition?

Here are the compositions that I know of:

1) The Backbone (from A Swingin' Affair)

2) Lost (from A Fickle Sonance)

3) Eric Walks (from Leapin' And Lopin')

4) The Way I Feel (from Vertigo)

These four are recorded and copyrighted.

In addition, he has told me about the following (or I have heard him play):

1) Little Chippie

2) Pink Elephants

3) America, America

4) Filibuster

5) Sharon And Angie

Butch told me that when he would have a solo feature with Monk, he would play 'Little Chippie'. I have not yet found an occurrence of Butch having a solo feature during a Monk performance (as opposed to a solo during a piece). Are there any such things on any boots? If so, there is a good chance that he is playing 'Little Chippie', so it may in fact be recorded in that sense.

Butch once mentioned that he heard either 'America, America' or 'Pink Elephants' on the radio, perhaps played by Cecil Payne. I have not uncovered any more info on this.

'Sharon And Angie' is a brand-new piece that Butch wrote on the spot last month at his regular Wednesday gig upon hearing that his daughter and step-daughter in Sacramento had been located.

If I find out about any others in the weeks to come, I will let you know.

Bertrand.

[troyk]

Thanks for the story Bertrand. My theory wasn't that well founded. When I was assembling my Butch Warren Discography I came across referrence on line saw "Butch's Blues" and wondered literally from the title if he had written it. I've downloaded is listened it and I recognize the motive from Blue Spring Shuffle which appeared on Quiet Kenny the year before, so coupled with the liner notes, no, but some great playing.

I was in DC in October and saw Butch play at Columbia Station, shook his hand and spoke with him briefly. Thrill of a life time. The man has tone and time and phrasing in his hands that is uniquely his. I honestly feel that if I had been walking down some random sidewalk and he had been playing inside I would have stopped and thought "is that Butch Warren?" Amazing. Beautiful.

And he was quite gracious as were Peter and the other guys I met there. It was a great experience for me.

Edited December 4, 2007 by troyk

[bertrand]

Tell us more about your discography

Bertrand.

[bertrand]

Are you a bass player who lives in Seattle? I think we met there. Your wife gave me her card and I was supposed to send you my Butch iTunes playlist, but of course I haven't done so yet because I'm so disorganized...

Bertrand.

[troyk]

That is me. <pregnant pause>

This is where screen names fail us.

Did you play something that night? I wish I had made that connection before. You and I had corresponded before.

Regarding the discography, I wanted to understand the discography better for my own purposes for myself but also to update Wikipedia and Allmusic.

Allmusic's is good, but has some mistakes. Wikipedia's is bad. His bio is not very flattering and has inaccuracies on both, but I don't think I'm the most qualified person to revise that and I was going to appeal to either you or Peter to either edit that or offer to do so if you provided the content.

I found some good discography info here too, obviously, but I'm going down a level and am happy to work together.

I'm so moved by his playing and my one encouter with him and I just would like public record (as well as my private library) to more accurately refect what he has done and is doing.

[bertrand]

I am not a musician - I tried but I have absolutely no rhythm.

The best way to put out a complete Butch Warren discography on the web is to use the BRIAN software and put something together for Mike Fitzgerald's jazzdiscography.com site. I have contribute info here and there, but am so computer-stupid that I have not yet put together my own discography (plus there's the time factor). Mike even patiently showed me for an hour outside the Library of Congress (we were stuck under the awning in a pouring rainstorm) but I'm still not sure how to start.

I also favor these discographies because they have the composer credits. I feel discographies without this feature are useless. Based on your interest in identifying Butch's compositions, I think you are thinking along the same terms.

Another option is to put the data together in a format of one's choice and send it to Mike and he will get it in BRIAN. But this is more work for him. I need to learn eventually since I want to do other discographies (Moncur, Redman).

The nice thing about BRIAN is that you can input a session from the discography of artist X into the discography of artist Y if they appear on the same date. Half of Butch's discography can probably be put together this way.

Butch has several session he has told me about that have never been released (local stuff). And there's a few other things

Bertrand.

[Big Beat Steve]

Since composer credits seem to be such a crucial item to many here, that leads me to a question on how those of you who insist on composer credits to be included in discographies are handling this in detail:

As we all know there have been numerous instances where record company execs or other "external" persons just added their own names as a matter of course to the actual composer's name in order to grab a share of the royalties.

Numerous such cases care known and documented and at any rate are open secrets, e.g. the "Josea", "Taub", "Ling" names routinely added to composer credits of tunes recorded for the Modern/RPM label conglomerate (these names being nothing but pseudonyms for the Bihari brothers who owned the labels).

Based on up to date knowledge, how are you going about entries like this? Include such names and add insult to injury for the actual composers or exclude them and maybe face complaints elsewhere?

Edited December 6, 2007 by Big Beat Steve

[Daniel A]

No disrespect to the composers, but I think the main reason for discographers wanting to include composer credits is because it can help to identlify the tune when there are several compositions with the same title, or if there are mistitlings on session sheets / record covers. So, even an incorrect composer listing may be of some help in this regard.

[Big Beat Steve]

Yeah but that would relieve you only to some (small) extent of the research work.

There are quite a few tunes out there that have widely differing composer credits depending on the labels, reissues, pressings, etc. that you happen to look at - although it really is the same tune in every case. Sometimes each artist who recorded a sort of "hit" version of a tune way back claimed he wrote it. Especially common in the pre-LP days.

So sometimes listing composer credits might actually do more harm than good.

[troyk]

I am not a musician - I tried but I have absolutely no rhythm.

The best way to put out a complete Butch Warren discography on the web is to use the BRIAN software and put something together for Mike Fitzgerald's jazzdiscography.com site. I have contribute info here and there, but am so computer-stupid that I have not yet put together my own discography (plus there's the time factor). Mike even patiently showed me for an hour outside the Library of Congress (we were stuck under the awning in a pouring rainstorm) but I'm still not sure how to start.

I also favor these discographies because they have the composer credits. I feel discographies without this feature are useless. Based on your interest in identifying Butch's compositions, I think you are thinking along the same terms.

Another option is to put the data together in a format of one's choice and send it to Mike and he will get it in BRIAN. But this is more work for him. I need to learn eventually since I want to do other discographies (Moncur, Redman).

The nice thing about BRIAN is that you can input a session from the discography of artist X into the discography of artist Y if they appear on the same date. Half of Butch's discography can probably be put together this way.

Butch has several session he has told me about that have never been released (local stuff). And there's a few other things

Bertrand.

Bertrand, I do remember now. I wish that I had made that connection that night, but my head was elsewhere, as you can imagine. The trip to DC was kind of sudden for me. A conference for my wife that I kind of tagged along on and I hadn't been able to get any solid info on whether Butch had been playing or not. So, I just took a chance. I had been off the plane for about an hour and a half, when we walked in the door and the whole thing was a very big deal to me. I know that he's your home town guy, but every musician has that one voice on their instrument that they have connected with from recordings and mine was 10 feet away from me playing standards. Of course, I had followed his story for the last several years, which made it all that much more dramatic.

I do plan to visit again. Not sure when or how, but I have a few friends in DC and Philly who I can stay with.

On the discography. I'm happy to do the work. More than happy. I think it would be great to work together on it. It bothers me to see incomplete or inaccurate info out there. If you have unpublished information, so much the better. If you look at the biographies on wikipedia and allmusic, I think you'll see my point that they could be better too. But, I really don't feel like I could write those. I'm happy to however, if you provide the content. Some of what I would like to update is factual, AllMusic says he was in Monk's band from '63-64 for example, which is an understatement of the fact. But, I also think that we could summarize his life story better in a few paragraphs that who ever did. Not me, but those of you who are closer to him. At least update it. And, I'm happy to do the work and make sure it gets updated.

Regarding the comments on composer credits, I agree that they aren't always meaningful. There are a lot of debates on who wrote vs who claimed to have written which songs on the catalogue, but in the case, we're talking about an unsung hero who we'd like to raise awareness of. Bertrand has first hand facts from weekly conversations with him that we should capture as part of the history so that they aren't lost.

My little dead end on "Butch's Blues"? I just thought when I saw the title that maybe he wrote it, but when I was informed the the liner notes said Dorham wrote it for him, I downloaded it for him and played it while i was cooking dinner. It sounded kinda bass soloie and I thought "how could a trumpet player have written that". Maybe he did just stick his name on it or maybe whoever wrote the liner notes got it wrong. Then I sat down with me food and listened again, attentively and recongized the motif that he was playing from "Quiet Kenny" Dorham and PC traded it back and forth through their solos on Blue Spring Shuffle a year earlier and I always thought it was wicked cool. So, if the recording dates were reversed, I would assume that Dorham and PC were quoting BW in their solos, but as it is, I have to side with the liner notes. Dorham brought that into the studio and said "Hey Butch, let's build a whole head around this thing that PC and I did last year."

That's where most of my jazz history comes from, which is why I get so excited when someone like Bertrand, has actual "I asked him and he told me versions".

Let's make sure to capture this stuff. I will clean up and post what I have in the BW thread this weekend.