Chris Potter - FOLLOW THE RED LINE (Live at the Vanguard)

[JSngry]

My son explained that the gist of "Junk Magic" was oblique takeoffs on the mannerisms of various Detroit-based hip-hop artists, and that you needed to get the references to get the music. Thanks a lot.

"Thanks" to your son or to Taborn?

Surely you're not suggesting that Taborn's intent (if your son is correct) is improper or is otherwise one that you couldn't get to if you wanted to.

Young folk ain't always gonna court the old folks' favor, doncha' know, and more power to 'em for that.

So, did you ask your son to hip you to some of the Detroit hip-hop being referenced?

[John L]

I picked up this one yesterday on this thread's recommendation, and can only echo the enthusiasm expressed here: very nice, and much stronger than Underground (IMO). Some of those grooves just don't quit.

[Larry Kart]

My son explained that the gist of "Junk Magic" was oblique takeoffs on the mannerisms of various Detroit-based hip-hop artists, and that you needed to get the references to get the music. Thanks a lot.

"Thanks" to your son or to Taborn?

Surely you're not suggesting that Taborn's intent (if your son is correct) is improper or is otherwise one that you couldn't get to if you wanted to.

Young folk ain't always gonna court the old folks' favor, doncha' know, and more power to 'em for that.

So, did you ask your son to hip you to some of the Detroit hip-hop being referenced?

Thanks to my son -- ironically. I am suggesting (but only suggesting/speculating) that if a musician of much skill in my experience (i.e. Taborn) produces something that seems to me to be by and large fairly uneventful (note: not peculiar, strange, aggressively off-putting or anything like that, just kind of droopy/spacey/snoozy with a pinch or two of what might or might not be artiness), then the fault (if you want to call it "fault") might not be in me, the old folker. Sure, I'd find some of that Detroit hip-hop and try to break to code of "Junk Music" (assuming my son's info about it being so referential is accurate), except that I've heard a whole lot of music of lots of kinds in my life that called for or benefited from background info that I didn't initially have, and none of it IIRC seemed as bland and boring to me as much of "Junk Music" did. And I listened to it several times. Life, I decided in this case, is too short -- and you know that I'm not incurious for an old folker.

[JSngry]

Fair enough.

But did you know (I didn't until recently, shows you how out of (some of) it I've been) that Detroit is apparently considered one of the founding cities of "techno"? If this set

is any indication, it's nothing like Euro-techno, it's a lot looser in feel (but still techno, no doubt). Detroit's also been a hotbed of house (as has Chicago), and there's one woman up there (name escapes me, but she's a saxophonist who's done work with Prince), who's off into this wierd-ish jazz-house, and another group of women singers (names escape again...)who make house with some pretty "interesting" vocal harmony.

So there's a continuing legacy of African-American popular music in Detroit, it didn't end with Motown. I gotta think that younger cats like Taborn are as aware of all that stuff as "we" are/were of the older stuff, and I'll allow for the possibility that the music in question is in fact simply boring, but I'll also allow that it might seem that way simply because we don't really have a clue what he's talking about.

But like you said, life is too short, and when you have truly great performances like the ones on this Potter side, hey, I ain't gonna spend too much time wonderring about it either.

[Larry Kart]

Fair enough.

But did you know (I didn't until recently, shows you how out of (some of) it I've been) that Detroit is apparently considered one of the founding cities of "techno"? If this set

is any indication, it's nothing like Euro-techno, it's a lot looser in feel (but still techno, no doubt). Detroit's also been a hotbed of house (as has Chicago), and there's one woman up there (name escapes me, but she's a saxophonist who's done work with Prince), who's off into this wierd-ish jazz-house, and another group of women singers (names escape again...)who make house with some pretty "interesting" vocal harmony.

So there's a continuing legacy of African-American popular music in Detroit, it didn't end with Motown. I gotta think that younger cats like Taborn are as aware of all that stuff as "we" are/were of the older stuff, and I'll allow for the possibility that the music in question is in fact simply boring, but I'll also allow that it might seem that way simply because we don't really have a clue what he's talking about.

But like you said, life is too short, and when you have truly great performances like the ones on this Potter side, hey, I ain't gonna spend too much time wonderring about it either.

Well, serendipitously I just found and listened to some J Dilla (if he has any bearing on this), and I'm interested.

[Quasimado]

Make sure you get it right (from your kids or whoever)... we're desperate not to be Beards!

Q

[JSngry]

If you think it's a good thing to reach a certain point in your learning and then stop, curl up, get comfortable, and think you've become "sophisticated" and don't have to confront unfamiliar realities any more, be my guest. Personally, I think that's bullshit.

Jefferson was right - the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Edited December 1, 2007 by JSngry

[Larry Kart]

If you think it's a good thing to reach a certain point in your learning and then stop, curl up, get comfortable, and think you've become "sophisticated" and don't have to confront unfamiliar realities any more, be my guest. Personally, I think that's bullshit.

Jefferson was right - the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Jim -- Dare I say that you're beginning to show or to develop some thought-police tendencies here. In particular, the yoking of "unfamiliar" and "realities," as though as anything that is unfamiliar and real (as in, it "exists") is also a semi-metaphorical "reality" -- i.e. something that any sensible, truly sophisticated person needs to take into account. Also, that ever so handy Jefferson quote, which always implies to me, "Hey -- we get to be vigilantes!" How about, Who will guard the guardians?

Also, the assumptions that IMO underlie this from a previous post: "Surely you're not suggesting that Taborn's intent ... is improper or is otherwise one that you couldn't get to if you wanted to. Young folk ain't always gonna court the old folks' favor, doncha' know, and more power to 'em for that." Sounds like a blend of Dylan's "Blowin' in the Wind" and that old journalist's line, "We got two kinds of publicity -- which kind do want?" In other words, get with the steamroller flow of history, mister -- a flow to which we have an infallible road map -- or be prepared to be squashed real flat.

[JSngry]

I'm only speaking for myself. Y'all can do what you want.

But for myself - I used to think that all those old folks (like my Dad, too many times...) who railed against a world they no longer understood were sort of pathetic. I mean, not all of them were that old, and the idea of living a good portion of your life as a stranger in your own world was something that struck me as wholly unnecessary and not a little...suicidal, at least in the metaphorical sense. When Aric rails against those "Beards", I totally understand what he means, because I recognize a previous generation of such people from my own years, and dammit, they pissed me off then, and frankly, no, the passage of time hasn't made me more sympathetic.

For a long time, worrying about becoming one myself wasn't an issue, but in the last few years, it's finally become the time where it is. Some will say that it's natural to "fade away" into the comfort of knowing what you know and luxurating in it. That's good as far as it goes, but when it gets to the point of getting so mired in what you already know and digging deeper and deeper backwards w/o making at least a little bit of reciprocal motion forward, then hey. Whazzup with THAT?

I mean, I got no problem with building on what you already know. It makes no sense to have learned and then disregard. But it also makes no sense to confuse "re-learning" the same old stuff over and over (AND over...) with actually "being there". Surely it's not impossible to keep moving ahead and adding/building on. I'd think that the joys of accumulated knowledges/wisdoms would compel rather than discourage such activity.

I used to hear the cool old folks say that dancing keeps you young. At first, I thought that was a literal statement about the benefits of ongoing physical activity. But I now see another dimension to it - time is a river, an ocean even, and it moves in a flow all its own. When we "dance", we become a part of that flow and keep going. When we "sit", we expose ourself to the inevitable/unavoidable erosive effects of that flow, and we wear down/out a lot sooner than we need to.

We gonna be dead soon enough, ya' know? So what's the rush to get it over with?

But like I said, I only speak for myself. Y'all can do what you want.

[JSngry]

And yeah, I might taunt/dig/wahtever from time to time, like on the Taborn thing. But my heart is full of love when I do so, at least as much as I am full of shit.

[Larry Kart]

BTW, the Dylan-expressed attitude I was thinking of, though I guess it's also in "Blowin' in the Wind," is particularly present in "Ballad of a Thin Man":

"Because something is happening here/But you don't know what it is/Do you, Mister Jones?"

[JSngry]

BTW, the Dylan-expressed attitude I was thinking of, though I guess it's also in "Blowin' in the Wind," is particularly present in "Ballad of a Thin Man":

"Because something is happening here/But you don't know what it is/Do you, Mister Jones?"

Well, yeah. It happens. Fact of life, no?

[montg]

i kind of object to the caricatures that get drawn sometimes--when I listen to music my ear seems to invariably drift to the bass line & if there's a funk groove riff or whatever that repeats over and over-that might be great on the dance floor, but I can't listen to it without starting to pull my hair and go bug eyed so music that features the verities of swing, or some interesting rhythmic action that marginally approaches swing, is what i enjoy to listen to. It moves me, that doesn't make me (or the music) necessarily reactionary. i like jazz i don't like fusion funk jazz or whatever it is.

fwiw, i generally like Potter's playing as a sideman w/Dave Douglas, David Binney, Dave Holland, and Adam Rogers, but i haven't heard this new cd so i'm not commenting on it per se.

[JSngry]

....when I listen to music my ear seems to invariably drift to the bass line & if there's a funk groove riff or whatever that repeats over and over-that might be great on the dance floor, but I can't listen to it without starting to pull my hair and go bug eyed

Well then, to paraphrase Rahsaan, prepare thyself to deal with an identity crisis, because this band/music has no bass player, and bass lines are as often as not implied thorugh the general momentum/rhythmic impeti (is that a word?) of the music.

Yet there is a strong sense of groove. "Funk" or "Fusion" might describe it, but maybe not. Either way, the intensity and creativity, I guess you could call it the "spirit" of the music, is that of a serious improvising unit, not a poppish jam band.

[montg]

funk without a bass..interesting. I've read nothing but positives about this cd, i prolly should check it out.

[JSngry]

Well, not really "funk" in the "commercial" sense...more like...jazz/swing with something besides "ching cinga-ching" as the reference point...

Thing is, the tunes don't all start out that way. Most of them begin life as something else entirely and end up in this...other place, this intense other place, before coming home again.

But yeah, if you like Potter (and as stated previously, I haven't not really) and/or Taborn and/or want to hear some new music that is at once "challenging" and "in the pocket", by all means take a chance on this one.

[kh1958]

This might be good, for those fortunate enough to be in New York City on these dates:

January 8-13 New York, NY The Village Vanguard Paul Motian Trio Feat. Chris Potter & Jason Moran

[Larry Kart]

BTW, the Dylan-expressed attitude I was thinking of, though I guess it's also in "Blowin' in the Wind," is particularly present in "Ballad of a Thin Man":

"Because something is happening here/But you don't know what it is/Do you, Mister Jones?"

Well, yeah. It happens. Fact of life, no?

It's also a fact of life that some people (and I don't mean you here, Jim) say things like "...something is happening here/But you don't know what it is, etc..." as part of a power operation -- in order to imply that they know which way the wind is definitively blowing and that anyone who isn't moving in that direction is already half-dead or deserves to be dead all the way. In such cases, it's not necessarily about any actual wind or its direction; it's about who gets to call himself a weatherman.

[ghost of miles]

Increasingly a fan of Chris Potter, longtime fan of Taborn, though I haven't heard this latest disc (but it's on the way). I'd say, though--not particularly in defense of anybody's viewpoint here (as usual, lots of great discussion) that music or any art ought to be able to stand on its own in terms of vitality, compelling interest, etc., and that the references/allusions should be another layer of attraction. Even art that's made up almost entirely of references and allusions (and there are plenty of modern-day examples) ought to cohere into something original and hopefully "good." Knowing the background on the Detroit techno scene (indeed it's been a happening thing... some folks came down and did a presentation not too long ago here at our black-music archives department) might potentially enhance Larry's appreciation for what Taborn's trying to do on that particular CD, but given Larry's astute, oft-proven listening abilities and (IMO) open-mindedness, shouldn't he be able nevertheless to detect the intensity (quiet or loud) that aesthetic success generates, or perhaps the lack of it?

Edited December 1, 2007 by ghost of miles

[JSngry]

Asked:

...given Larry's astute, oft-proven listening abilities and (IMO) open-mindedness, shouldn't he be able nevertheless to detect the intensity (quiet or loud) that aesthetic success generates, or perhaps the lack of it?

And answered:

Fair enough.

[JSngry]

BTW, the Dylan-expressed attitude I was thinking of, though I guess it's also in "Blowin' in the Wind," is particularly present in "Ballad of a Thin Man":

"Because something is happening here/But you don't know what it is/Do you, Mister Jones?"

Well, yeah. It happens. Fact of life, no?

It's also a fact of life that some people (and I don't mean you here, Jim) say things like "...something is happening here/But you don't know what it is, etc..." as part of a power operation -- in order to imply that they know which way the wind is definitively blowing and that anyone who isn't moving in that direction is already half-dead or deserves to be dead all the way. In such cases, it's not necessarily about any actual wind or its direction; it's about who gets to call himself a weatherman.

Yeah, and some people say it just because something is happening and they just want people to wake up.

If I see a tornado on the horizon, I want you to know about it. But do I want you to come to my house for protection, or do I even want you to ask me for directions to the nearest shelter?

HELL no!

And in the meantime, shit does happen, whether we know about it or not, and whether we like it or not.

[Joe G]

Picked this release up today - so far, very good!

[Van Basten II]

Anybody bought the other Potter release that came out at the same time. 10 songs for anyone with a tentet.

Some good bits but not as constant as you hope it would be but still a fine record.

Edited December 1, 2007 by Van Basten II

[Larry Kart]

And in the meantime, shit does happen, whether we know about it or not, and whether we like it or not.

And sometimes some sort of new or newish shit is happening, and some people jump up and down proclaiming this not so much because they're that excited by the new shit in and of itself but because they see an opportunity here to beat up on and/or browbeat the people who aren't yet or (because of temperament, prior affiliation, or personal history, etc.) never will be excited by this particular shit. In effect, a kind of power operation -- the appeal of wielding culture like a club. One side of the '60s, IIRC. And, again, I'm not thinking of you here, Jim.

[JSngry]

Well, Larry, yes they certainly do, and I'm glad you're not. Because "newness" alone don't mean shit to me. But joy and connection certainly does, and when/if I feel joy and connection from/with something "new", hey, gotta love it when that happens, no?

I will admit, though, that I do experience an ever-growing frustration while being amongst my "peers" and having the "interest" seemingly be forever frozen in one zone, like that was the shit for all time and buddy, these kids today and all that kind of attitude stuff that's really just people turning not-young-anymore and forgetting the joy of discovery being an ongoing thing, like if you're going to keep a scrapbook and not keep adding onto it, isn't that kind of creepy, almost as creepy as keeping a scrapbook in the first place?

That's another type of using culture as a club too, that notion that "I've seen it all baby, and there ain't never been nothin' like blahblahblah." Well, maybe in your particular zone that ain't never been, and maybe in your zone the heights have already been reached, but DAMN dude, ya' know....? But now that you got a little juice and all you want to do with it is Greatest Hits of one sort or another, hey...fuck that.

I have not forgotten the intensity with which smug & complacent middle-aged & older folk pissed me off back in my youth, how they made me feel as if they themselves had created the world & how my attempts to make a world of my own were so much useless expenditure of so much useless energy (I'm talking musically here, but there were a few "life experiences" along the way that fell into the same vein...). Now, my generation, the dreaded "Boomers" are exuding waaay too much of that same vibe for my liking, and to think that now that I finally have a littlle "cred" based on a little bit of age and a little bit of experience that I could/should take the path of least resistance and play along with/become one of them is most unpalatable. And yeah, it is getting to be an issue now that the people I've known, worked with, liked, and come to love as spirits, for a good while are getting to be "that age". Ever spend an entire night on and off the bandstand "looking back" and not even knowing it? Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

My liking for the music on this album is based on it being what I consider good music, simple as that. My enthusiasm for the air fo fuquitousness that I think it exudes is entirely personal. Seems like it's impossible to have a strong opinion and not have a club come along with it, so put my club to the use - when it needs to be used at all, which is by no means all the time, just so you know - of encourgaging active engagement in the moment and discouraging self-congratulatory complacency. It's got nothing to do with style, and everything to do with attitude.

They got a club, I got a club, everybody gots a club, dig? Don't for one second think that they don't.