I can no longer trust new USA vinyl production....

[porcy62]

You are talking about adulthood? Calling people names like you did isn't really proof of adulthood (or of civilized behaviour, for that matter) in my view and is totally unnecessary.

I can loose control and I can be unpolite like everybody's else. I am an adult with a lot of flaws like everybody's else, I am not claiming I am THE PERFECT MAN, nobody here is it.

When I was wrong or unpolite, and I was, I apologized and recognized my fault. That's adulthood for me. Nobody here will chasing you around internet in order to threaten your personal life or you family or your reputation. It's a forum, a discussion board, discussions can be harsh and nasty, as well as interesting or useless. For me adulthood implies you can manage all this. If you're interested in other's POV.

Edited November 27, 2007 by porcy62

[AllenLowe]

well, it gets strange sometimes, and sometimes certain offending remarks irk me, sometimes not - Clementine and I used to be at odds but I now think I was over-sensitive and missed the spirit of his posts, which can definitely be insulting but have a certain underground lterary spirit/humor/distance to them - on the other hand I recently was unhappy to be called a "boob" by Jazzmouse, so certain sensitivities linger - it is unfortunate how quickly disagreements can degenerate into name calling -

but, as Nixon said, "I AM NOT A BOOB."

[J.A.W.]

You are talking about adulthood? Calling people names like you did isn't really proof of adulthood (or of civilized behaviour, for that matter) in my view and is totally unnecessary.

I can loose control and I can be unpolite like everybody's else. I am an adult with a lot of flaws like everybody's else, I am not claiming I am THE PERFECT MAN, nobody here is it.

When I was wrong or unpolite, and I was, I apologized and recognized my fault. That's adulthood for me. Nobody here will chasing you around internet in order to threaten your personal life or you family or your reputation. It's a forum, a discussion board, discussions can be harsh and nasty, as well as interesting or useless. For me adulthood implies you can manage all this. If you're interested in other's POV.

So apologizing afterwards makes it OK to be rude and impolite? And that is proof of adulthood in your view? I couldn't disagree more. We clearly live in two very different worlds.

It might be an idea to think twice and proof read a post (and remove any name calling and rudeness) before hitting the reply button. That way you wouldn't have to apologize afterwards

Edited November 27, 2007 by J.A.W.

[porcy62]

You are talking about adulthood? Calling people names like you did isn't really proof of adulthood (or of civilized behaviour, for that matter) in my view and is totally unnecessary.

I can loose control and I can be unpolite like everybody's else. I am an adult with a lot of flaws like everybody's else, I am not claiming I am THE PERFECT MAN, nobody here is it.

When I was wrong or unpolite, and I was, I apologized and recognized my fault. That's adulthood for me. Nobody here will chasing you around internet in order to threaten your personal life or you family or your reputation. It's a forum, a discussion board, discussions can be harsh and nasty, as well as interesting or useless. For me adulthood implies you can manage all this. If you're interested in other's POV.

So being able to apologize afterwards makes it OK to be rude and impolite? And that is proof of adulthood in your view?

I couldn't disagree more. We clearly live in two very different worlds.

It might be an idea to think twice and proof read a post (and remove any name calling and rudeness) before hitting the reply button. That way you wouldn't have to apologize afterwards

No, we live in the very same world. We just have a different POV and temper. I presume you never apologized for anything you did in your life, because you never lost control nor your politeness and never did a mistake. I envy you and your cold blood.

No name calling in this post, so no apologize in the next one

[J.A.W.]

You are talking about adulthood? Calling people names like you did isn't really proof of adulthood (or of civilized behaviour, for that matter) in my view and is totally unnecessary.

I can loose control and I can be unpolite like everybody's else. I am an adult with a lot of flaws like everybody's else, I am not claiming I am THE PERFECT MAN, nobody here is it.

When I was wrong or unpolite, and I was, I apologized and recognized my fault. That's adulthood for me. Nobody here will chasing you around internet in order to threaten your personal life or you family or your reputation. It's a forum, a discussion board, discussions can be harsh and nasty, as well as interesting or useless. For me adulthood implies you can manage all this. If you're interested in other's POV.

So being able to apologize afterwards makes it OK to be rude and impolite? And that is proof of adulthood in your view?

I couldn't disagree more. We clearly live in two very different worlds.

It might be an idea to think twice and proof read a post (and remove any name calling and rudeness) before hitting the reply button. That way you wouldn't have to apologize afterwards

No, we live in the very same world. We just have a different POV and temper. I presume you never apologized for anything you did in your life, because you never lost control nor your politeness and never did a mistake. I envy you and your cold blood.

No name calling in this post, so no apologize in the next one

Thanks for calling me cold-blooded, very nice. Of course I made many mistakes and of course I apologized many times, but that is not the point here. If there's something I hate, it's bad manners and rudeness and I will avoid that in my posts, and that (bad manners and rudeness in posts) is what we're talking about in this discussion, not about the way we behave in the real world - we know nothing about each other and our behaviour outside this forum, so let's leave that out of this.

I think we made our points of view clear and I don't see any point in going on.

Edited November 27, 2007 by J.A.W.

[porcy62]

You are talking about adulthood? Calling people names like you did isn't really proof of adulthood (or of civilized behaviour, for that matter) in my view and is totally unnecessary.

I can loose control and I can be unpolite like everybody's else. I am an adult with a lot of flaws like everybody's else, I am not claiming I am THE PERFECT MAN, nobody here is it.

When I was wrong or unpolite, and I was, I apologized and recognized my fault. That's adulthood for me. Nobody here will chasing you around internet in order to threaten your personal life or you family or your reputation. It's a forum, a discussion board, discussions can be harsh and nasty, as well as interesting or useless. For me adulthood implies you can manage all this. If you're interested in other's POV.

So being able to apologize afterwards makes it OK to be rude and impolite? And that is proof of adulthood in your view?

I couldn't disagree more. We clearly live in two very different worlds.

It might be an idea to think twice and proof read a post (and remove any name calling and rudeness) before hitting the reply button. That way you wouldn't have to apologize afterwards

No, we live in the very same world. We just have a different POV and temper. I presume you never apologized for anything you did in your life, because you never lost control nor your politeness and never did a mistake. I envy you and your cold blood.

No name calling in this post, so no apologize in the next one

Thanks for calling me cold-blooded, very nice. Of course I made many mistakes and of course I apologized many times, but that is not the point here. If there's something I hate, it's bad manners and rudeness and I will avoid that in my posts, and that (bad manners and rudeness in posts) is what we're talking about in this discussion, not about the way we behave in the real world - we know nothing about each other and our behaviour outside this forum, so let's leave that out of this.

I think we made our points of view clear and I don't see any point in going on.

In my post "cold blood" was meant as someone who doesn't loose control, not an insult at all. FWIW.

[Christiern]

Hey, Holland and Italy, let's have a truce!

[AllenLowe]

look, as President Merkin Muffley said in Dr. Strangelove, "I can be just as sorry as anyone else."

[brownie]

Hey, Holland and Italy, let's have a truce!

Damn right!

Let the two countries enjoy a Peace pipe!

[paul secor]

Hope to see Hans posting on other threads soon. He's been missed!

[Jim Alfredson]

By the way, I think the rudeness and insults in some of the previous posts do not help getting the message across and it says a lot about this forum and some of its members that offensive remarks and personal attacks are made and allowed here. It's got nothing to do with freedom of expression, it's just mud slinging, nothing else.

Well, mud slinging is part of freedom of expression, isn't it? If I edited and/or deleted every post that had name-calling in it, that would be censorship, wouldn't it?

I count on the members being able to self-edit. I also count on them to work things out on their own. I very rarely feel the need to step in.

So far I haven't run across any disparaging comments about organissimo on this board. I assume people are just being polite.

[paul secor]

Sorry to see that Hans has evidently left the Forum - he's now listed as "Guest". Hope that he reconsiders and returns.

[brownie]

From the private exchange I have had with him, Hans would even be upset at still being listed as a 'guest'.

He asked Jim A. to be unregistred!

Very much doubt he will be coming back for a long, long time.

Very sad news!

Edited November 29, 2007 by brownie

[sidewinder]

Not good news. Hans' input on the forums is appreciated !

Edited November 29, 2007 by sidewinder

[Free For All]

Sorry to hear about this.

[Jim Alfredson]

From the private exchange I have had with him, Hans would even be upset at still being listed as a 'guest'.

Not much I can do about that except to delete all his posts which now that he is unregistered I cannot do anyway.

[brownie]

From the private exchange I have had with him, Hans would even be upset at still being listed as a 'guest'.

Not much I can do about that except to delete all his posts which now that he is unregistered I cannot do anyway.

In that case, 'Guest' will do.

[Big Beat Steve]

Sorry if this alienates J.A.W. further but I find this behavior rather childish.

I've quit other forums before too (upon severe disagreement with the way those forums have been run) but in cases like this especially after insults that may have been made have been apologized for? As far as I can see Porcy62 did apologize.

What has he been out for? Rub it in good? Make his "opponent" fall on his knees and beg for forgiveness forevermore?

Adult people ought to know better than making a scene after a disagreement with ONE single forum member, especially if they have proven their common sense through other posts here.

Not that I would want to take any sides but the SH forum underlings must be more than satisfied in seeing how disputes over THAT forum OVER THERE lead to such controversies, feuds and waste of energy right here. This sure detracts from the original topic of this thread.

So what was it all about again? Sloppy product quality or forum censorship? Or the consumer's right to speak out loud about sloppy product quality (or even only about product quality perceived as sloppy?)

Edited November 30, 2007 by Big Beat Steve

[Daniel A]

Steve, as you stated yourself you have left other forums because you didn't agree with the way they were run. It is my understanding that this was partly the reason for Hans leaving, rather than a "disagreement with one single forum member".

In a sad way, this serves as a reminder that the "free" atmosphere here is not percieved as very friendly by everyone, and using the old "private club" analogy, some posters would be adviced to think twice about what they are posting since I'm certain they would never use the tone face-to-face to someone that they are using in their posts here.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Daniel A

[brownie]

From what J.A.W. pointed out, he did not leave the forum because of one poster - he took good note of Porcy62's apology.

He left because - to quote him - the insults/rudeness/name calling/mud slinging seem to have become part of what Org is these days and he didn't want to be part of that.

Nothing childish about this. It does reflect on what goes on more and more frequently on the Board unfortunately.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Well, he's to be found on the Blindman's Blues forum, which is very polite, in my experience.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

I must have been reading the wrong threads ... I did not notice much mud-slinging around here (thankfully).

Some tongue-in-cheek teasing with certain people (whom I am not going to name ) is quite in order, I think. And I must say I for one do appreciate the outspokenness of people like Clem (though I sometimes find it hard to follow what he is saying ).

But anyway ... to each his own. Nobody has to agree with everything everybody else says and sometimes personality clashes via the 'net unfortunately are unavoidable.

Daniel A, compared to that other forum I've stopped posting in everything that may have gone on here is next to nothing ... really!

But back to the topic now ...

[couw]

I perfectly understand Hans, there actually is a lot of mudslinging and rudeness here, combined with some clinical self-righteousness.

The perpetrators are highly valued by the community, however, and so all is deemed good with freedom of expression as a perfect hideout.

If you want to catch the ball, please do, but these are my last words on it for now. I am merely expressing my impression, freedom of and all that.

[Jim Alfredson]

The whole thing is silly. What would you or Hans have me do? Ban people for making snide comments at each other? Edit every single post with a hint of negativity in it? Become a sterilized, heavily moderated forum like the Hoffman forum where nobody can disagree and everyone is scared to death of me? Sounds like a blast.

Hans, in an email to me, spoke of people being held accountable for what they say. That's what YOU are for. I expect the forum members to moderate themselves and call each other out when somebody is talking crap. What can I do? Nothing. I can only ban people. I don't think people should be banned for being rude (in the eyes of a few) or for calling names. What good would that do?

Yes, people say (write) shit to each other on a forum like this that they wouldn't say face to face. Welcome to the Internet. If you don't have a thick skin, you're not going to have a lot of fun.

Sure, I suppose I can delete posts, and sometimes I do. And then those who have posts deleted and the people who appreciate those posts for whatever reason are pissed at me. If I don't, then those that find the posts offensive for whatever reason are pissed. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Everybody seems to be an expert on how a forum should be run, but I don't see anybody else actually running one except for Tom1960, who I respect, but I personally find that forum extremely dull.

Hans left of his own accord for his own reasons. That's his right and I wish him the best. This place has been going for almost five years now and its about as healthy as its ever been. It really hasn't changed much.

[brownie]

I perfectly understand Hans, there actually is a lot of mudslinging and rudeness here, combined with some clinical self-righteousness.

The perpetrators are highly valued by the community, however, and so all is deemed good with freedom of expression as a perfect hideout.

If you want to catch the ball, please do, but these are my last words on it for now. I am merely expressing my impression, freedom of and all that.

Hope you show up more often on other threads, then.

Too many good people seem to have disappeared or make rare appearances here nowadays.

The O community seemed happier several years ago.

Should also mention that I have met both Porcy62 and Big Beat Steve and was delighted with the encounters.

Good people as were the other Organissimo people I have had the pleasure to meet (and I hope to meet J.A.W. too one of these days!).

Edited December 1, 2007 by brownie