2007 Hot Stove League Thread

[Chuck Nessa]

Heard the Tribune Company told the big stockholders they would sell the Cubs in the next 6 months.

[Matthew]

...the Cubs signing Fukudome to a four year deal for $48 Million?

I read that Fukudome has been compared to J.D. Drew. As soon as I read that I heard Matthew & Noj snickering. One site noted he hit a little lighter in Japan than Godzilla (the Yankee) and is a little older than when Matsui made his US debut. So I suppose that comparison might be fair, as long as you don't include the baggage.

The Astros for Tejada looks deal looks like a lot of junk, though I say that without cracking the Prospectus so it's ill informed. But it almost looks like it's factored in that he made the Mitchell report. He could put up some pretty heady numbers hitting in that dopey lil' ballpark.

As for Rowand, while I can't imagine he'll be experiencing many wins anytime soon, he's a west coast guy, and he'll have a lot of money to spend in a beautiful town. There are worse things than to be young & rich in San Francisco.

Fukudome like JD? $5.00 says JD goes on the DL first, and double if JD does it in spring training. I bet Drew is milking his grand slam for all it's worth this winter. Loser....

I'm always in mid-season form when it comes to JD.

[Dan Gould]

I know all the moves were outside of NY and Boston but nobody has anything to say about Rowand signing with the Giants, Tejada being to the Houston Astros or the Cubs signing Fukudome to a four year deal for $48 Million?

The MLB rumors site reports that the Tejada deal is a terrible one for Houston, that they gave up virtually all of their top prospects for someone who is already declining. It shows how much Tejada has declined, I think a year or two ago the Orioles had a deal for some solid major league talent but their idiot owner vetoed the move. Now they get a bunch of OK youngsters, who knows if they pan out or not? Really both of those franchises are being run into the ground. They deserve to do a deal like this together.

I like the Fukodome signing, I'm pretty sure he will easily beat out Jacque Jones' numbers. Not the critical improvement the Cubs need but given the ownership situation, a pretty good addition.

As for Rowand, its a pathetic indictment of the Giants that they would throw that much money at someone who is, at best, a number six hitter, yet he becomes their cleanup guy. Good defense, and offense that is grossly inflated by the tiny park he played in. This deal is neck and neck with the Torri Hunter deal for most mindless move of the offseason. The only good thing is that since he is only 30 now, the Giants aren't on the hook for as much of his decline phase as the Angels are on the hook for Hunter's.

[Matthew]

Looks like the Mitchell bloodbath is starting: Roger is going down......

[Dan Gould]

Looks like the Mitchell bloodbath is starting: Roger is going down......

Its also being reported that "several" high-profile Yankees will be named also. That leaves me hoping that at least a few Red Sox players, past or present, will be identified as well, because otherwise there will be Yankee fans pointing to the fact that Mitchell never resigned from the Board of Directors of the Red Sox and say that it resulted in a biased report. Personally I think its bullshit but Selig and Mitchell foolishly allowed him to keep his position when the appearance of impartiality is crucial to the acceptance of the report.

As for Roger, there were certainly more than a few rumors, and he did go from the pudgy "twilight of his career" to a remarkable resurgence (and a huge gain in his physique). The question now is, how does it effect his Hall of Fame candidacy, since its pretty clear he's through playing? According to the report, he received steroids from the trainer while he was a Yankee and "before" - was that before period when he was with Toronto or with Boston? It kind of makes sense that it was Toronto - Duquette's comments stung, Roger knew he had to improve his fitness to get back on top, steroids were all over the game, its hardly surprising if he started using at that point.

[Matthew]

Looks like the Mitchell bloodbath is starting: Roger is going down......

Its also being reported that "several" high-profile Yankees will be named also. That leaves me hoping that at least a few Red Sox players, past or present, will be identified as well, because otherwise there will be Yankee fans pointing to the fact that Mitchell never resigned from the Board of Directors of the Red Sox and say that it resulted in a biased report. Personally I think its bullshit but Selig and Mitchell foolishly allowed him to keep his position when the appearance of impartiality is crucial to the acceptance of the report.

As for Roger, there were certainly more than a few rumors, and he did go from the pudgy "twilight of his career" to a remarkable resurgence (and a huge gain in his physique). The question now is, how does it effect his Hall of Fame candidacy, since its pretty clear he's through playing? According to the report, he received steroids from the trainer while he was a Yankee and "before" - was that before period when he was with Toronto or with Boston? It kind of makes sense that it was Toronto - Duquette's comments stung, Roger knew he had to improve his fitness to get back on top, steroids were all over the game, its hardly surprising if he started using at that point.

You could make a good argument that if the steroid report is true, and if he started in Toronto, then there would have to be a serious re-evaluation of his career and HOF credentials. I don't think Roger was a sure fire HOFmer when he left Boston.

PS: New dog Dan?

Edited December 13, 2007 by Matthew

[Noj]

False list deleted.

Edited December 13, 2007 by Noj

[Matthew]

Unconfirmed list posted by Jon Abbey at JC...

"Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafael Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Pior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts,Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood."

Albert Pujols, I must admit, is a surprise to me -- he's such a talent, he doesn't need to juice up. Least surprising: Brady Anderson. Yeah, those 50 homers in 1996 came off skill.

[Dan Gould]

John Abbey at JC is a legitimate source? I think we need to wait until 1 pm.

Matthew,

Its the same Coltrane, just a different pic. I couldn't find the cropped photo I had used before.

I was just discussing Roger's HoF credentials when he left Boston, presumably before he juiced. 192 wins before, 160 or so since. 3 Cy Young awards, 4 after. He clearly went from good pitcher on the decline (what was it? 40-39 over the last four years in Boston?) to legend in the making.

The one problem is that its very tough to discriminate between stats padded by steroids for a pitcher vs those for a hitter. With distance estimates of home runs, you can make a rough calculation of how added muscle mass can result in X number of "juiced" homers. But obviously some of those were going to go out anyway. How the heck do you decide what part of Clemens accomplishments can be attributed to steroids?

And in terms of the Hall, is it fair to assume that without steroids, he still would have ended up with, say, 280 wins? I'd be inclined to agree with that, which makes him a likely Hall of Famer, but not the first ballot HoF that he appeared to be. And that may be what happens: enough voters will refuse to vote him in for a period of time, but ultimately he will get in, just as he probably would have without the aid of modern chemistry.

[alocispepraluger102]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/14/sports/b...agewanted=print

[Aggie87]

John Abbey at JC is a legitimate source? I think we need to wait until 1 pm.

Matthew,

Its the same Coltrane, just a different pic. I couldn't find the cropped photo I had used before.

I was just discussing Roger's HoF credentials when he left Boston, presumably before he juiced. 192 wins before, 160 or so since. 3 Cy Young awards, 4 after. He clearly went from good pitcher on the decline (what was it? 40-39 over the last four years in Boston?) to legend in the making.

The one problem is that its very tough to discriminate between stats padded by steroids for a pitcher vs those for a hitter. With distance estimates of home runs, you can make a rough calculation of how added muscle mass can result in X number of "juiced" homers. But obviously some of those were going to go out anyway. How the heck do you decide what part of Clemens accomplishments can be attributed to steroids?

And in terms of the Hall, is it fair to assume that without steroids, he still would have ended up with, say, 280 wins? I'd be inclined to agree with that, which makes him a likely Hall of Famer, but not the first ballot HoF that he appeared to be. And that may be what happens: enough voters will refuse to vote him in for a period of time, but ultimately he will get in, just as he probably would have without the aid of modern chemistry.

Or the voters (and MLB for that matter) could take a stand and say that any confirmed juicers will not be allowed in the Hall.

Of course, all of these players will be going into Denial Mode later today.

[Noj]

Hey, I did say "unconfirmed," and so did Abbey. He got the list from SOSH.

[Dan Gould]

Two observations about that list:

If its accurate, then the report that "prominent" Yankees would be identified is mistaken. The only current Yankee player is Pettitte, and we all know about the Clemens/Clemens' trainer connection.

Secondly, Rich Garces? El Guapo???

The man who inspired the "Bobble Belly" giveaway?

This is what he looked like in his playing days:

[Quincy]

Unconfirmed list posted by Jon Abbey at JC...

" Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne,.....Juan Gonzalez

Juan double dip there? I've always suspected Luis Gonzalez, just because of the muscle mass he grew, along with the Frankenstein shaped head. (Btw, I really like Frankenstein, so it's not really an insult. ) I'm hoping Edgar Martinez avoids the list, though I know he was big on creatine.

[Quincy]

I was just discussing Roger's HoF credentials when he left Boston, presumably before he juiced. 192 wins before, 160 or so since. 3 Cy Young awards, 4 after. He clearly went from good pitcher on the decline (what was it? 40-39 over the last four years in Boston?) to legend in the making. However Clemens probably would have had more Ks than Seaver just because hitters are more free swinging today.

The one problem is that its very tough to discriminate between stats padded by steroids for a pitcher vs those for a hitter. With distance estimates of home runs, you can make a rough calculation of how added muscle mass can result in X number of "juiced" homers. But obviously some of those were going to go out anyway. How the heck do you decide what part of Clemens accomplishments can be attributed to steroids?

And in terms of the Hall, is it fair to assume that without steroids, he still would have ended up with, say, 280 wins? I'd be inclined to agree with that, which makes him a likely Hall of Famer, but not the first ballot HoF that he appeared to be. And that may be what happens: enough voters will refuse to vote him in for a period of time, but ultimately he will get in, just as he probably would have without the aid of modern chemistry.

I agree it's tough as hell. I'm inclined to think his career would have looked more like Tom Seaver's in his 30s. Seaver never struck out 200 again after his first full season with the Reds at age 33. (Doesn't that sound strange?) He plugged on until he was 41, striking out roughly 5 per 9 innings, and other than an injury plagued '82 season had fewer hits than innings pitched. (Sheeeeeeeeeet, off years for him, but worth $12-15 million today.)

I think the major benefit of the 'roids for a pitcher is in the legs, that's why I brought up Seaver. He was all about leg drive (remember the dirty knee on the push off leg.) Both Pettitte & Clemens have those massive figure skater thighs. (Oh great, now I'm accusing Dorthy Hamill of juicing.) It doesn't hurt to have muscular forearms either, but mostly those legs can add on the mph.

[Dan Gould]

Completely agree, Eric - when I was a kid, I tried to imitate Tom Seaver's motion, down to the dirt on the right knee.

[Chalupa]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/mitchell/index.jsp

[Noj]

Apparently the list which I posted earlier was wrong. I'll delete my post and others can delete the posts quoting it if they like.

[Quincy]

Apparently the list which I posted earlier was wrong. I'll delete my post and others can delete the posts quoting it if they like.

It was believable enough. Glad it wasn't reality, especially regarding Poo-holes. Apologies to Luis & all Gonzalezs. Luis is always referred to as a "nice guy."

[Aggie87]

Apparently the list which I posted earlier was wrong. I'll delete my post and others can delete the posts quoting it if they like.

It was believable enough. Glad it wasn't reality, especially regarding Poo-holes. Apologies to Luis & all Gonzalezs. Luis is always referred to as a "nice guy."

He's still got that Frankenstein noggin though.

[Dan Gould]

So let me ask you guys - no current Red Sox, no really "big" Red Sox players of the past except for Mo Vaugnn. Does this call into question the report because two major Yankees were identified while the good Senator - member of the Red Sox Board - didn't name any Red Sox players?

[Tim McG]

I think this does: Questions about the validity of the Mitchell Report

[BERIGAN]

Fernando Vina is on the list I see.....will ESPN talk to him about this???

[Tim McG]

Funny...I didn't see Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire or Rafael Palmiero on the "list."

Hm.

[Tim McG]

BTW....here's the "list" :

The List