CD-Rs sold as CDs

[AllenLowe]

you can tell by looking at the bottom - just compare it to one you know is a real one -

as for CDRs, it is reprehensible to sell them without telling people what they are, and I personally would never pay more than maybe $5 or $6 for such - blanks cost 'em maybe 30 cents, and it's not like they have to do anything once it's in the duper -

this is really a bad thing for a big lable like Nimbus to be doing -

Swingtime was Bill Hebden's label, with the worst sound restoration work ever done - run from these CDs if you see them, CDR or not -

[Jim Alfredson]

you can tell by looking at the bottom - just compare it to one you know is a real one -

as for CDRs, it is reprehensible to sell them without telling people what they are, and I personally would never pay more than maybe $5 or $6 for such - blanks cost 'em maybe 30 cents, and it's not like they have to do anything once it's in the duper -

Well, you can press 1000 discs nowaways for what, $1100? So that's $1.10 per disc. If you do larger runs you can get them even cheaper per disc. Should they then be sold for $15 a pop by labels, independent musicians, etc? In other words, is the value of the product directly related to the medium it's on or is it related to the music that's on the medium?

[Daniel A]

In other words, is the value of the product directly related to the medium it's on or is it related to the music that's on the medium?

The value is not strictly related to the medium, but I would not pay as much for a CDR with a life expectancy of, what, ten years as for a real CD which most probably will last much longer.

[robviti]

...on the other hand, the kind of people hanging around this kind of internet jazz forums make up less than one percent of the population today already, so...

as of last july, that figure was roughly 59,420,018 people.

[AllenLowe]

yes, I agree - I would pay based on longevity and durabiility - a real CD is like (or at least we hope it's like) a good hard cover publication of a book - as opposed to, say, a photocopy, which is how I regard a CDR in terms of intrinsic retail value - -

[relyles]

you can tell by looking at the bottom - just compare it to one you know is a real one -

as for CDRs, it is reprehensible to sell them without telling people what they are, and I personally would never pay more than maybe $5 or $6 for such - blanks cost 'em maybe 30 cents, and it's not like they have to do anything once it's in the duper -

Well, you can press 1000 discs nowaways for what, $1100? So that's $1.10 per disc. If you do larger runs you can get them even cheaper per disc. Should they then be sold for $15 a pop by labels, independent musicians, etc? In other words, is the value of the product directly related to the medium it's on or is it related to the music that's on the medium?

Ultimately, the value to the listener of the musical experience is probably incapable of valueing. However, I think the point (as someone else suggests) is that the retail value necessarily has to include the medium as well as the value of the packaging and anything else that is included in the physical object that is purchased. If the cost to produce the object is reduced, is it unfair for the consumer to expect some or all of that cost reduction to be passed on?

[Dan Gould]

FWIW, Cadence was selling a CDR by a New York organist, Seleno Clarke. Eric Alexander is on the live recording made at Smoke. They explicitly identified it as a CDR and a check on the website shows a price that is lower than full retail but not exactly extra cheap: $12.

[Jim Alfredson]

you can tell by looking at the bottom - just compare it to one you know is a real one -

as for CDRs, it is reprehensible to sell them without telling people what they are, and I personally would never pay more than maybe $5 or $6 for such - blanks cost 'em maybe 30 cents, and it's not like they have to do anything once it's in the duper -

Well, you can press 1000 discs nowaways for what, $1100? So that's $1.10 per disc. If you do larger runs you can get them even cheaper per disc. Should they then be sold for $15 a pop by labels, independent musicians, etc? In other words, is the value of the product directly related to the medium it's on or is it related to the music that's on the medium?

Ultimately, the value to the listener of the musical experience is probably incapable of valueing. However, I think the point (as someone else suggests) is that the retail value necessarily has to include the medium as well as the value of the packaging and anything else that is included in the physical object that is purchased. If the cost to produce the object is reduced, is it unfair for the consumer to expect some or all of that cost reduction to be passed on?

The cost of producing the actual physical medium might be reduced, but what about studio time? Mixing time? Mastering time? Paying the talent? The fact that hardly anybody buys jazz CDs in the first place?

Sure, if you're selling 750,000 copies of an album, there is no good reason for it to cost $17.98. But what if you're barely selling 1,000?

To put it in perspective, our last CD cost us $10,000 to make (out of our own pockets). In order to just break even, we need to sell at least 700 of them or so at $15 a piece (we actually sell most of ours at gigs for $10... the second highest number of sales comes from CDBaby and we only make about $10 per disc there as well). But of that first run of 1,000 we gave 500 or so away for promotion (to radio stations, clubs, festivals, etc.) So then we have to print up another 1,000 at $1500 more. Now we're up to $11,500.

But wait! When we started recording the last CD we were still $2000 in debt from "Waiting For The Boogaloo Sisters..." So now we're up to $13,500! Then we ran out of "Waiting...", so there's another $1800 (digipaks are more expensive to print than CDs in jewel cases). Etc. etc. etc. Take out $150 a month for this site, subtract the $1500 or so that Artist1Stop never paid us for distribution (and never will), the money CDStreet never paid us (and never will), throw in some gigs where the CD sales basically paid for our gas because we made no money from the gig itself (like 99% of our east coast trips) and you can see how hard it is to break even when you're selling to such a small market as this one. We still owe about $2000 on the last CD and one of the reasons we haven't made a new one in 2 and 1/2 years is because we're trying to pay that debt.

What about iTunes? $0.99 per tune. If the album has 10 tunes on it, that's almost $10. What's the difference between that and buying a CD-R for $10? At least with a well-made CD-R you're getting some artwork. And that's another thing: Yes, blank CD-Rs are cheap, but if the label has any tact, they'll include a printed booklet of some kind. Printing artwork costs money. The case costs money. Printing on the disc costs money (inkjet printer ink isn't cheap!). By the time you add it all up, they are probably paying the same per disc that they would pay if they had it pressed; the difference is that they can print up only as many as they need, instead of having to pay for 1,000 or 2,000 discs that might never sell.

I've seriously considered making the next release either CD-R and/or download only. In this market, it's about cutting costs.

[clifford_thornton]

And yet CDs themselves are now hot on the "collector's market."

As one medium takes over, another becomes an instantly-hot property.

[AllenLowe]

Jim -

I understand and basically agree with your arguments - I would add that you can reduce your costs by using all available tax deductions relative to your music and the CD self-productions costs - but you have to be scrupulous in your accounting, for both costs and profits, or the IRS will be all over your butt. Self-employment in this respect is a red-flag for audits. But if you're in a 28 percent bracket, for example, a $10,000 business expense can be reduced, in real cost, to about $7200 - take your gig mileage, etc etc etc and you can help yourself a lot. However, you may already be doing this -

as for CDRs and downloads, this is one area in which I am determined to swim agains the market tide - we've talked before about what a disposable musical economy this is, too much being produced as downloads, which de-values the collective idea of a cd album project. To me, at this time, continuing to do it differently may help me to stand out from the crowd. I look at CDs like novels or collections of short stories or even short films. And in doing so I want to produce something permanent and lasting - and CDRs just do not do this for me - YMMV, as they say -

Edited October 23, 2007 by AllenLowe

[Daniel A]

Jim, I understand where you're coming from and you as a struggling recording artist have my deepest sympathy. I just don't think I'm alone in not wanting to pay as much for a CDR as for a CD. At least it's me and Allen... I look upon a CDR with good music as a hadsomly tailored suit made from poor fabric.

[Rooster_Ties]

Hey Jim,

How much actual cost is it to record one tune in your own home "studio" -- or in some other "less than optimal" environment?? (but still reasonably close to a "studio recording" in terms of quality, i.e. good enough for those who aren't too damn picky).

(Something akin to the Xmas tunes you've done for us in the past??)

I've got a good idea for a "debt retirement" party, that could be REALLY good for you ($$), and good for us too.

Edited October 23, 2007 by Rooster_Ties

[relyles]

Jim - all of your points are compelling and I do not dispute anything you stated. My only distinction is that from the perspective of the potential consumer of the final tangible product, the intrinsic value to me of a CDR is less than a regular CD. That does not mean I would not purchase a CDR if that was the medium the music was available. I have in the past and IIRC I have purchased one or more directly from artists for more than a small amount. Although unintelligibly presented, my point is that I simply want to know what I am purchasing before hand. In the case of the example I gave originally, a CD purchased in a store that was put out by Candid Records, and not directly from the artist - I think it is a more egregious situation.

[Ron S]

I recently purchased Jaki Byard's "Blues for Smoke" on Candid and, like relyles, was (unpleasantly) suprised to find a CD-R inside the jewel case. I sent an email inquiry to Candid, and just received the following reply:

Dear Ron

This is an authorised copy. We have to use a small company that is able to run a minimum quantity. Running a small quantity from the big plants would be very expensive, therefore this is the only way we could minimise our expenses. So you do not need to worry about it as your copy is legitimate.

Best

Nieves Bates

[Aggie87]

I recently purchased Jaki Byard's "Blues for Smoke" on Candid and, like relyles, was (unpleasantly) suprised to find a CD-R inside the jewel case. I sent an email inquiry to Candid, and just received the following reply:

Dear Ron

This is an authorised copy. We have to use a small company that is able to run a minimum quantity. Running a small quantity from the big plants would be very expensive, therefore this is the only way we could minimise our expenses. So you do not need to worry about it as your copy is legitimate.

Best

Nieves Bates

You better keep that email, in case you ever want to re-sell that disc to anyone else - as proof that it's a legitimate copy.

[analogak]

black saint does that also.

better than nothing.

dmg is the worst-selling CDRs unoficcially for 15 bucks a pop.

[Ron S]

I recently purchased Jaki Byard's "Blues for Smoke" on Candid and, like relyles, was (unpleasantly) suprised to find a CD-R inside the jewel case. I sent an email inquiry to Candid, and just received the following reply:

Dear Ron

This is an authorised copy. We have to use a small company that is able to run a minimum quantity. Running a small quantity from the big plants would be very expensive, therefore this is the only way we could minimise our expenses. So you do not need to worry about it as your copy is legitimate.

Best

Nieves Bates

You better keep that email, in case you ever want to re-sell that disc to anyone else - as proof that it's a legitimate copy.

Funny you should mention that--I just got through folding up a copy and sliding it into the jewel case cover (great--or neurotic--minds think alike ).

[Swinging Swede]

So you do not need to worry about it as your copy is legitimate.

My worry wouldn't be that it isn't legitimate, but that a CD-R won't last as long as CDs. I've had several CD-Rs go bad within a few years, but even my earliest CD from 1983 plays fine.

Another label to add to the list is Sounds of Yesteryear. They have a rather large number of releases in the last few years, rare but good-sounding live recordings from the Swing Era for example. I had already bought some titles, when I realized that they are CD-Rs. They are however advertised as CDs in all Internet shops, which I simply think is wrong.

[Ron S]

So you do not need to worry about it as your copy is legitimate.

My worry wouldn't be that it isn't legitimate, but that a CD-R won't last as long as CDs. I've had several CD-Rs go bad within a few years, but even my earliest CD from 1983 plays fine.

I used the legitimacy pretext in order to get a response from Candid, given that relyles apparently had been unsuccessful in getting one. I guess it worked.

[relyles]

So you do not need to worry about it as your copy is legitimate.

My worry wouldn't be that it isn't legitimate, but that a CD-R won't last as long as CDs. I've had several CD-Rs go bad within a few years, but even my earliest CD from 1983 plays fine.

I used the legitimacy pretext in order to get a response from Candid, given that relyles apparently had been unsuccessful in getting one. I guess it worked.

Coincidentally, yesterday I was thinking about the fact that I never got a response from Candid and even considered ordering another copy to see what I would get. Thanks for getting an answer to my question.

[Morganized]

I recently purchased Jaki Byard's "Blues for Smoke" on Candid and, like relyles, was (unpleasantly) suprised to find a CD-R inside the jewel case. I sent an email inquiry to Candid, and just received the following reply:

Dear Ron

This is an authorised copy. We have to use a small company that is able to run a minimum quantity. Running a small quantity from the big plants would be very expensive, therefore this is the only way we could minimise our expenses. So you do not need to worry about it as your copy is legitimate.

Best

Nieves Bates

You better keep that email, in case you ever want to re-sell that disc to anyone else - as proof that it's a legitimate copy.

You are right. Doesn't this open up a problem of proof if the copyright holder wants to enforce its rights? If the trend continues you can envision a world where a buyer could not possibly know whether the copy is a " legitimate" copy or an "illegitimate" copy. Especially if bad guys are selling reproduceable art work etc.etc. ...... I guess the next step for the RIAA is to require all buyers to contact the company to see if the copy you wish to purchase is "legitimate" or not.

Whew!

brave new world.

[romualdo]

Just received an order from ImportCDs & one of the items was a Candid Benny Bailey CD -> looks like this is a CDr with a cheap/flimsy (almost photocopy like) slick.

All of the Candids I have purchased so far (up until a month or so ago) were "proper" pressings

Anyone else experienced this recently - the last entry in this thread goes back to 2008 & I have obtained quite a number of non CDr Candids in that time

Maybe it's only the more obscure Candids that are being repressed as CDr runs (lower numbers)

[AllenLowe]

if I get a CDR, I return it, on principle, if it's been charged as though it's a real CD -