Was there any racial tension in Jazz between the East Coast and the We

[Larry Kart]

In order to explain what I feel about Gioia's book, I'd have to re-read it again, and I don't have the time right now. So that's a subject I'll have to drop. Submit your memory cards for partial erasure, please -- I'm about to erase mine. Ah, that's feels good.

[montg]

The fact that the issue's 'fraught' only makes it more ripe for investigation, doesn't it? ... for obvious reasons The Sources, printed or speaking, won't help much, but there's bits and bobs here and there:

Down Beat, 28/12, 8 June 1961, p. 19-22. 'Inside the Cannonball Adderley Quintet, Pt 1', Don DeMichael

Nat Adderley: “The thing that involves this whole movement – the soul music thing – could be construed as a racial thing. It can be very well construed that way, and a lot of people construe it to mean that if you got soul, or to have soul, you’ve got to be a Negro. … [t]here were a whole lot of guys – a whole lot of good Negro musicians who weren’t working very regularly when the vogue was the cool west coast sound, because everybody who was cool and west coast was white. So you get a thing 10 years later that is a big commercial gimmick, soul music, and everybody involved in it is colored. So naturally you get a thing back … the way [the "musician in Harlem" is] looking at this thing is, 'They didn’t say anything about the west coast music – they let the cool music run for 10 years. Now we got something to go; we got soul music. And finally, I’ve got a job. I can work in the clubs, and already, they’re trying to kill it.'"

[the they is critics, of course]

How much of the racial 'divisions' were perpetuated by the "they" Nat is referring to--the critics/media. Dave Brubeck on the cover of Time, Ellington denied the pulitzer and so forth. Musicians' ire often seems, to me, to have been directed at the economic unfairness of whatever cultural biases existed in the media and among critics. I mean Shorty Rogers had cameos on network TV in the 50s (Peter Gunn)....was Kenny DOrham ever going to have a shot at that type of exposure? The question about 'racial tensions' that motivated this thread seems misdirected to me--whatever tensions may have existed on the bandstand are secondary to the tensions felt by African Americans against a critical or cultural establishment that characterized and marketed the music in ways that sometimes unfairly elevated caucasian musicians...not that the wcj musicians didn't deserve whatever economic benefits came their way, but it was a zero sum game so somebody was losing.

[AndrewHill]

HG, I hope this disagreement is helpful or thought-provoking or otherwise of some assistance to you. If I have any other suggestions I'll PM them to you. I'm no jazz Machiavelli, but I do think that everybody has their own set of blinkers.

Yes, it is helpful and in fact all of you have really enlightened me on this topic. I am extremely grateful for all the posts made so far on this subject.

Thank you,

HG

[Christiern]

I lived through that period and was active in the business during part of it. Was there racism within jazz? Definitely, but I never sensed that it had anything to do with a coastal divide, neither musically nor geographically. There were people on both coasts who thought the West Coast variety of jazz to be somewhat anemic. It often was. There were also people who saw the gospel-tinged, decidedly black "soul jazz" (don't confuse it with "soul music"--a derivative label) as bordering on pop. "Pop" was a derogatory term in jazz circles (almost as horrifying as "commercial" had been n a previous decade), and with more musicians having a conservatory education, it was almost inevitable that jazz would spawn a less finger-snapping style. I recall Jimmy Giuffre, having just given a college concert, being asked where the rhythm was. "It is understood," he replied.

Well, not everybody understood that explanation, but this was a wonderful period in jazz that offered an eclectic bag of approaches. I don't recall ever hearing a musician degrade the opposite Coast's music, and this was a time when I had casual conversations with many of the top players (including Cannonball) on a daily basis. I do, however, remember the late 50s-early 60s as a time when many black musicians began to voice their political grievances--some scared the pants off the white people and sometimes brought out dormant racism among my white colleagues. Many did not understand the surfacing militancy, but that is because their ignorance did not prepare them for it.

[Teasing the Korean]

Has anyone read the Gene Lees book that I cited earlier? I frequently disagree with his opinions and get annoyed with his writing style, but I was wondering how he handled the subject.

[AndrewHill]

Has anyone read the Gene Lees book that I cited earlier? I frequently disagree with his opinions and get annoyed with his writing style, but I was wondering how he handled the subject.

Actually, I searched for it but with no success. I tried author/title/ and keyword with no luck. Do you have the exact title?

Edited October 10, 2007 by Holy Ghost

[Larry Kart]

Has anyone read the Gene Lees book that I cited earlier? I frequently disagree with his opinions and get annoyed with his writing style, but I was wondering how he handled the subject.

Actually, I searched for it but with no success. I tried author/title/ and keyword with no luck. Do you have the exact title?

You Can't Steal a Gift

http://www.amazon.com/You-Cant-Steal-Gift-...9445&sr=1-1

[Chuck Nessa]

Gene Lees never wrote a phrase without some silly agenda.

[Teasing the Korean]

The book is called "Cat's of Any Color: Jazz Black and White."

http://www.amazon.com/Cats-Any-Color-Black...513&sr=1-11

and I generally agree with Chuck's assessment of Gene Lees.

[AndrewHill]

The book is called "Cat's of Any Color: Jazz Black and White."

http://www.amazon.com/Cats-Any-Color-Black...513&sr=1-11

Thanks.

Funny, that's the one I ended up getting!

[Larry Kart]

As its title suggests, Lees's "You Can't Still a Gift" also contains much b.s. from him on this subject.

[AndrewHill]

As its title suggests, Lees's "You Can't Still a Gift" also contains much b.s. from him on this subject.

Is that also the case with the "Cats of Any Color" title above? I considered all of the titles suggested above and went ahead and got most of them. Thanks everyone again for the great suggestions.

HG

[AllenLowe]

Gene Lees is disliked byumany for good reason for his dumb-ass racial stuff and his stupid take on modernism (read what he says about jazz being un-adaptable for the avant garde and how he cites, in ignorant fashion, Joyce to support this) - BUT - he has interviewed and profiled quite a few musicians that have rarely been profiled elsewhere, so I read him, because they are good, intelligent profiles.

On the other hand, anyone remember his Diane Krall piece in Downbeat? Most embarassing thing I ever read -

[Larry Kart]

As its title suggests, Lees's "You Can't Still a Gift" also contains much b.s. from him on this subject.

Is that also the case with the "Cats of Any Color" title above? I considered all of the titles suggested above and went ahead and got most of them. Thanks everyone again for the great suggestions.

HG

Does he treat the subject there? Yes, probably more so in "Cats." Is what he says there b.s.? That's my opinion; YMMV.

[AndrewHill]

YMMV.

I'm sorry Larry, but I don't know what that means (maybe I'm not supposed to?)

[Christiern]

Never seen that one before,but if I may guess:

You Make Me Vomit?

Having since gone back and read the posts, I must be dead wrong!

Edited October 12, 2007 by Christiern

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I recently learned, here, that it's

Your Mileage May Vary

MG

[AndrewHill]

You Make Me Vomit?

Man, I hope that's what it doesn't mean.

[Christiern]

I recently learned, here, that it's

Your Mileage May Vary

MG

Thanks, MG, now it makes sense, which is what I expect from Larry.

[Larry Kart]

I recently learned, here, that it's

Your Mileage May Vary

MG

Thanks, MG, now it makes sense, which is what I expect from Larry.

But of course.

[JSngry]

Larry be The Sense Maker!

Recognize!

[AllenLowe]

I thought it meant Your Mother's Mean and Vicious (of course, how Larry knows this, I have no idea, but that's between you two guys) -

[AllenLowe]

or maybe, Yellow Moneys Masturbate Vicariously (once again, consult Larry for sources) -

[AllenLowe]

last possibility - Yes Men Must Vacate - this one makes the most sense -

[AllenLowe]

forgot about that one - as a matter of fact I have it tattooed on my left bicep -