verve/clef/norgan-questions

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

1) on this g. wallington +strings EP, the CLEF logo is covered up w/ a little NORGAN RECORDS sticker-the disc just says norgan

what is up w/ this? why did he have BOTH those labels? is the reason sketchy, a la Crown/Kent/United?

2) how did verve becomso popular, whydid mgm even wanna m buy em out in the 1st place? cause liberty boughtBN?

[brownie]

Norman Granz started his own Clef label in 1953 after having released his own albums with the Mercury label.

Granz knew his jazz, knew his art and knew his business.

Along with the Clef records, Granz also used the Norgran and Downhome labels for different types of music.

By 1956 he consolidated his various labels under the name of Verve (the name Verve came from a highly-sought French arts magazine).

He later created the Pablo (guess for who!) label.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

  chewy said:

2) how did verve becomso popular, whydid mgm even wanna m buy em out in the 1st place? cause liberty boughtBN?

I think a big part of the answer is Ella Fitzgerald. She had had three or four albums on the pop LP charts before MGM bought Verve (not sure when that was exactly). A few singles made the R&B charts, as well: Illinois Jacquet's "Port of Rico" and "Mordido" by the JATP All Stars are ones I can remember offhand.

But Brownie's right; even without hits, Granz' labels were probably making money. Granz was a good businessman.

Of course, with MGM's financing and industrial push, Verve did even better in the following years. I don't know if Granz maintained his connection with the firm after the sale or if this was mainly Creed Taylor's doing.

MG

Oh, and PS - Verve had certainly been bought by the time Jimmy Smith's "Bashin'" came out - and that was five years before Liberty bought BN.

Edited October 6, 2007 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[AndrewHill]

  brownie said:

He later created the Pablo (guess for who!) label.

Joe Pass? Milt Jackson? Count Basie? Oscar Peterson?....Oh, I give up who?

[brownie]

As noted in my earlier post, Granz was an art connaisseur! Which is why he named Verve after the famous art review and Pablo because of Picasso!

Granz' art collection was worth a fortune!

[AndrewHill]

  brownie said:

As noted in my earlier post, Granz was an art connaisseur! Which is why he named Verve after the famous art review and Pablo because of Picasso!

Granz' art collection was worth a fortune!

I can't believe I missed that hint!

[Stereojack]

I'ver heard that when he sold Verve to MGM around 1961, the figure was $3 million, some of which he invested in Picasso paintings. Needless to say, the value of them skyrocketed over the next few years, making Granz a very rich man.

[BruceH]

I heard that in order to raise the money to start the Pablo label he sold some of his Picassos, hence the name. This may be apocryphal for all I know.

But later on, Verve also had the Velvet Underground and Frank Zappa---talk about a label that kicked ass!

[montg]

For a guy who really dug art, it's ironic that the company named 'Pablo" consistently put out some of the worst-looking album covers in jazz. Some great music though!

[Guest Bill Barton]

  montg said:

For a guy who really dug art, it's ironic that the company named 'Pablo" consistently put out some of the worst-looking album covers in jazz. Some great music though!

Good point! Man, those were some seriously mundane covers, weren't they? But, hey, some of the photos weren't half bad...

[Teasing the Korean]

I would like to know what happened to the master tapes from the early days of these labels. Ever notice how vague the information is on the CDs? "Mastered from the best possible sources..." etc. I've encountered Verve/Norgran/Clef vinyl that sounds significantly better than the CD reissues - and not just in an analog vs. digital kind of way. I've also heard later pressings of Verve LPs that sound like they were taken from inferior sources (compared to earlier pressings). Any story here?

Edited October 6, 2007 by Teasing the Korean

[mjzee]

  Bill Barton said:

  montg said:

For a guy who really dug art, it's ironic that the company named 'Pablo" consistently put out some of the worst-looking album covers in jazz. Some great music though!

Good point! Man, those were some seriously mundane covers, weren't they? But, hey, some of the photos weren't half bad...

Yeah, why was the black on those black-and-white photos always more of a pasty gray?

And don't get me started on the script font...

[brownie]

I happen to like the art on the Pablo vinyls. Stark black and white images by the excellent photographer Phil Stern!

[marcello]

I liked the covers, for the most part and the font.

Here's a good one that is almost ruined by the new font/title block on the cover on the cd release:

Here's another good one with the original font. See, much better:

By the way, here's more info on Phil Stern, who goes all the way back to the Sleepy Lagoon trials with Granz.

Edited October 7, 2007 by marcello

[AndrewHill]

Ok, since the label Pablo is named after Picasso, can anyone explain the logo that goes with the Pablo name?

[medjuck]

  Teasing the Korean said:

I would like to know what happened to the master tapes from the early days of these labels. Ever notice how vague the information is on the CDs? "Mastered from the best possible sources..." etc. I've encountered Verve/Norgran/Clef vinyl that sounds significantly better than the CD reissues - and not just in an analog vs. digital kind of way. I've also heard later pressings of Verve LPs that sound like they were taken from inferior sources (compared to earlier pressings). Any story here?

Bones Howe once told me that he paid himself to get stereo recordings for some of the sessions he engineered. (Apparently Granz didn't want to go stereo at first.) Bones kept the master tapes but much later sold them to Verve.

[Guest Bill Barton]

  brownie said:

I happen to like the art on the Pablo vinyls. Stark black and white images by the excellent photographer Phil Stern!

Yeah, I liked the photos too.

  marcello said:

I liked the covers, for the most part and the font.

Here's a good one that is almost ruined by the new font/title block on the cover on the cd release:

Here's another good one with the original font. See, much better:

By the way, here's more info on Phil Stern, who goes all the way back to the Sleepy Lagoon trials with Granz.

That second one is indeed a *great* image.

And thanks for the Phil Stern link, Tom!

Edited October 8, 2007 by Bill Barton

[Chuck Nessa]

The Pablo cover "concept" is a continuation of a number of clef/norgran 10" covers.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

  Holy Ghost said:

Ok, since the label Pablo is named after Picasso, can anyone explain the logo that goes with the Pablo name?

Good question. I always wondered what that was supposed to say.

MG