Uncle Skid Posted October 3, 2007 Report Posted October 3, 2007 I'm looking at a drum chart for a Frank Mantooth arrangement of Harold Arlen's "That Old Black Magic", and struggling to make sense out of the song structure... Lots of eight bar phrases, but one that appears to be either 14 or 6, and another that looks like 10. Anybody familiar with this arrangement, or the structure of this tune in general? Quote
JSngry Posted October 3, 2007 Report Posted October 3, 2007 It does go on, doesn't it... Can't reel off the form off the top of my head, but I strongly suggest that you become familiar with a vocal version. The structure actually seems organic in the context of the lyrics, which give you something to hold on to when playing/learning the song instrumentally. Trust me on this. Myself, I really dig the Louis Prima/Keeley Smith version, but there's others that are more "in-line" There's a great late-40s Stan Getz side where he just blows on the changes, no head or nothing, called "Diaper Pin". That's something to hear! But definitely - learn the lyrics. It's easier than counting bars and is a lot more musical to boot. Quote
JSngry Posted October 3, 2007 Report Posted October 3, 2007 Not knowing the Mantooth arrangement, though, I can't say he does or doesn't deviate from the original song form. Still - learn the lyrics! Quote
DukeCity Posted October 3, 2007 Report Posted October 3, 2007 It's been a while since I played that Tooth arrangement, but as I sing the tune in my head, it's an A A B A form with each section as 16 bars. The different phrase lengths in Tooth's arrangment are probably just him taking the arranger's perogative. Near the end of a 16 bar phrase, he would often "interrupt" the end of the phrase by starting something new, resulting in what looks like a 14 bar phrase. Or he might extend an 8 bar phrase by stretching something at the end, giving you 9, 10 or 12 bars. JSngry's suggestion to find a vocal version is a great one. I would heartily suggest finding a the episode of Gomer Pyle USMC where Seargent Carter coaches Gomer's girlfriend Luanne Poovey in how to perform. The vehicle they chose: "That Old Black Magic" Classic! Quote
Uncle Skid Posted October 3, 2007 Author Report Posted October 3, 2007 Thanks for the help Jim and Glenn -- very much appreciated. I was able to find both versions Jim mentioned (on EMusic). Also, two more swingin' versions from Ella Fitzgerald and Rosemary Clooney. Once I have the lyrics in my head, I'll go back and see if this arrangement makes more sense to me... I'm betting it will! -- Mark Quote
Ian McElligott Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 Hi everyone, I understand Frank Mantooth’s is out of print, but does anyone have a copy of the full score I could purchase - a pdf copy would be more than acceptable. Quote
sgcim Posted April 13 Report Posted April 13 We just played it last week. It's a great chart. I'm trying to condense it for just guitar and bass, but the leader doesn't let us take home charts, because he's got too many books and doesn't want it to get lost. A funny story about Mantooth; this trumpet player in the band told me a few months ago that when he was a Jazz ensemble director he had Mantooth as a clinician with his HS band. He said Mantooth constantly bellttled and put down the kids and treated them like dirt. I was surprised, because I've only heard good things about the late Mantooth. Then, last week we played a chart by John Fedchock, and he told me the same story, but this time it was about Fedchock. I told him he said the same thing about Mantooth, and he denied ever even meeting Mantooth! I kept insisting that he told me the exact same story about Mantooth, and he kept denying he ever met him. Finally I looked at him and I asked him how old he was. Sheepishly, he said 75 with a smile on his face. I said, "well that explains that". Quote
JSngry Posted April 13 Report Posted April 13 I like the whole thing, musically and visually. That pair was special for a lot of the time before it soured Bottom line for me - if your body language is telling me you swing, I believe you. And if you can do that while doing an "act", you win! Quote
Gheorghe Posted April 17 Report Posted April 17 I think , I fear I don´t know about Louis Prima. Maybe he is not well known in Europe. "That Old Black Magic" is a song I play often ! Quote
mhatta Posted April 17 Report Posted April 17 (edited) A bit off-topic... Bud Powell recorded “That Old Black Magic” several times. The 1954 recording for Norgran/Verve was terrible, possibly he was drunk. However, the 1955 live recording from Birdland is a wonderful performance (it was issued in Francis Paudras' massive box set of Powell archive). Unfortunately, it seems to have been recorded via a TV speaker (possibly from Bob Andrews' collection?), resulting in terrible sound quality. It is basically unlistenable. However, the 1956 version recently unearthed by Lewis Porter has excellent sound quality (some mess in the middle), and the drums are played by Roy Haynes! While the performance lacks the same grandeur as the 1955 version, it's still quite good. https://lewisporter.substack.com/p/bud-powell-unissued-live-recording Edited April 17 by mhatta Quote
sgcim Posted April 18 Report Posted April 18 I figured out the piano ostinato in Prima's first version of TOBM Jim posted. There's another completely different and easier to play ostinato going on in the second version. I think I'm beginning to see a pattern. I found a version of Mantooth's arr. of the tune on YT but it's played way too fast. it doesn't surprise me that Bud dug it. I think I'll go back to my original arr. of it. Quote
Gheorghe Posted April 19 Report Posted April 19 On 4/18/2025 at 12:40 AM, mhatta said: A bit off-topic... Bud Powell recorded “That Old Black Magic” several times. The 1954 recording for Norgran/Verve was terrible, possibly he was drunk. However, the 1955 live recording from Birdland is a wonderful performance (it was issued in Francis Paudras' massive box set of Powell archive). Unfortunately, it seems to have been recorded via a TV speaker (possibly from Bob Andrews' collection?), resulting in terrible sound quality. It is basically unlistenable. However, the 1956 version recently unearthed by Lewis Porter has excellent sound quality (some mess in the middle), and the drums are played by Roy Haynes! While the performance lacks the same grandeur as the 1955 version, it's still quite good. https://lewisporter.substack.com/p/bud-powell-unissued-live-recording no off topic ! I heard an album where Bud plays Old Magic and does even one chorus of fantastic "stride section" on it. But I think it was at least 10 years later. I think it is the best instrumental performance of "Old Black Magic" which I ever heard. He has a fantastic drummer on that, J.C. Moses, one of my favourite avantgarde drummers. I love him, as I love all hip drummers !!!!! I don´t know a weak version of Bud, I am too young to have met Bud, he died when I was just entering school or something and was a kid and unable to get to his performances, but I think all that stupid bullschitt folks throw at him with "drunk" and God knows what...... Someone started to do that bad writings who was NOT A MUSICIAN. I AM A MUSICIAN and don´t even touch alcool cause I can´t smell it as well as I can´t smell or even eat something that comes out of animals, that flesh, those eggs, those milk, butter, cheese......I don´t eat that. And even if I never touch alcool I have times where my playing is sad or at least it sounds sad for me. I can´t understand it, but there is days or hours where I can´t finger nothing, and then the next day I wonder myself what I can hit on the keys. And fellow musicians also tell me that. "oh, tonight you didn´t play shit, you didn´t kill us", and the next night they say to me "gee you really played some shit dis night" and I also feel I played my ass off...... If Bud might have had some weaker performances, maybe it was the same unknown reason that sometimes just happens....... and you don´t know why...... Quote
Gheorghe Posted April 19 Report Posted April 19 2 hours ago, JSngry said: Maybe this is some Getz playing Old Black Magic that I heard somewhere, decades ago on a record with Miles, where Getz has a solo spot with "Magic". But as much as I remember after 40, 50 years, he played it straight ahead, which somehow irritated me, since I know the version of it on a Dizzy Gillespie Big Band played "latin" and Bud also played it latin but then straight ahead in the solos ..... I think I have played it only "for fun" at home on piano just for Serena during the nights I am off and she asks me for a "private concert" with some nice "after show party" if you understand me rite 🤩.... but now while you say it I might do it in public to (without after show party hehehe 😜). Maybe , I don´t know, but maybe at home I just play it for her since I play some love-related songs, not the sad songs of lost love like "These Sweet Little things" with the remembrance of lipstick on cigarette tips and stuff..... Quote
JSngry Posted April 19 Report Posted April 19 Nope, that Getz take was for his own record. Al Haig on piano. https://www.discogs.com/master/1358775-Stan-Getz-Quartet-Pardon-My-Bop-Diaper-Pin?srsltid=AfmBOooHwyIzrPegKEI-TRq0-8WmGj7xsoeXgDOzNRJzKj4EHecw1C0e Quote
Mark Stryker Posted Monday at 05:33 PM Report Posted Monday at 05:33 PM A great Sinatra small group version from 1954. Quote
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