Strange Question - Ode to Billie Joe?

[Dan Gould]

I was just listening to Jimmy Dawkins tearing up "Ode to Billie Joe" and it got me thinking - there were a lot of covers of this tune by jazz and blues artists, both at the time it was a top 40 hit and afterwards. So that leaves me wondering - is it purely a function of these artists trying for a hit, or a recognizable tune to play at gigs, or was there anything intrinsic to the tune itself that made it "interesting"?

[Free For All]

I remember the mid-70s lame movie, back during the "Robby Benson years" (I remember because that's when I was working as a projectionist in a movie theatre and it came to town, so I saw it again and again and again.

IIRC it was rumored to have been based on a true story, not sure if that was true or not. I think the scandalous nature of the sex/murder/suicide story had something to do with the tune's popularity and longevity.

I see the film was produced by Max "Jethro" Baer, Jr. Music by Michel Legrand- I don't remember anything other than the song.

Edited September 30, 2007 by Free For All

[felser]

I remember the mid-70s lame movie, back during the "Robby Benson years" (I remember because that's when I was working as a projectionist in a movie theatre and it came to town, so I saw it again and again and again.

IIRC it was rumored to have been based on a true story, not sure if that was true or not. I think the scandalous nature of the sex/murder/suicide story had something to do with the tune's popularity and longevity.

I see the film was produced by Max "Jethro" Baer, Jr. Music by Michel Legrand- I don't remember anything other than the song.

The hit tune was from 1967 and many (most?) of the covers were well before the movie. There is a major historical allusion in the song which I only realized in the past year from research on a different topic. Remember the key line "He and Billie Joe was throwin' somethin' off of Tallahatchie Bridge?". Well, not pretty, but here it is.

Emmett Louis "Bobo" Till (July 25, 1941 – August 28, 1955) was a fourteen year old African-American boy from Chicago, Illinois brutally murdered [1] in Money, Mississippi, a small town in the state's Delta region. His murder has been cited as one of the key events that energized the nascent American Civil Rights Movement.[1] The main suspects were acquitted, but later admitted to committing the crime.

Till's mother insisted on a public funeral service with an open casket to let everyone see how he had been brutally killed.[2] He had been shot, beaten and had his eye gouged out before he was then thrown into the Tallahatchie River with a 75-pound cotton gin fan tied to his neck as a weight with barbed wire. His body stayed in the river for three days until it was discovered and retrieved by two fishermen.

Pretty gutsy stuff for a white southern woman to be writing and singing about in 1967, so I hand it to Gentry. The record certainly deserved it's success. Bob Dylan also wrote and recorded a song called 'The Death of Emmitt Til', which is an outtake from the Freewheelin' Bob Dylan album.

[Chuck Nessa]

By that time the answer is "a recognizable tune to play at gigs" for white audiences. Nothing wrong musically.

[Alexander]

I remember the mid-70s lame movie, back during the "Robby Benson years" (I remember because that's when I was working as a projectionist in a movie theatre and it came to town, so I saw it again and again and again.

IIRC it was rumored to have been based on a true story, not sure if that was true or not. I think the scandalous nature of the sex/murder/suicide story had something to do with the tune's popularity and longevity.

I see the film was produced by Max "Jethro" Baer, Jr. Music by Michel Legrand- I don't remember anything other than the song.

The hit tune was from 1967 and many (most?) of the covers were well before the movie. There is a major historical allusion in the song which I only realized in the past year from research on a different topic. Remember the key line "He and Billie Joe was throwin' somethin' off of Tallahatchie Bridge?". Well, not pretty, but here it is.

Emmett Louis "Bobo" Till (July 25, 1941 – August 28, 1955) was a fourteen year old African-American boy from Chicago, Illinois brutally murdered [1] in Money, Mississippi, a small town in the state's Delta region. His murder has been cited as one of the key events that energized the nascent American Civil Rights Movement.[1] The main suspects were acquitted, but later admitted to committing the crime.

Till's mother insisted on a public funeral service with an open casket to let everyone see how he had been brutally killed.[2] He had been shot, beaten and had his eye gouged out before he was then thrown into the Tallahatchie River with a 75-pound cotton gin fan tied to his neck as a weight with barbed wire. His body stayed in the river for three days until it was discovered and retrieved by two fishermen.

Pretty gutsy stuff for a white southern woman to be writing and singing about in 1967, so I hand it to Gentry. The record certainly deserved it's success. Bob Dylan also wrote and recorded a song called 'The Death of Emmitt Til', which is an outtake from the Freewheelin' Bob Dylan album.

This is the first time I've ever heard of the murder of Emmett Till linked to "Ode to Billie Joe." I've heard a lot of theories, however, about what was thrown off of the bridge (the theory I heard the most was that it was a stillborn/aborted baby). Dylan, who did record a ballad about Emmett Till (I have a demo recording on the "Great White Wonder" boot), also recorded an answer song to "Ode to Billie Joe." Nowadays, it's better known as "The Clothesline Saga" from the Basement Tapes, but it's original title was simply "Answer to Ode."

[felser]

This is the first time I've ever heard of the murder of Emmett Till linked to "Ode to Billie Joe." I've heard a lot of theories, however, about what was thrown off of the bridge (the theory I heard the most was that it was a stillborn/aborted baby). Dylan, who did record a ballad about Emmett Till (I have a demo recording on the "Great White Wonder" boot), also recorded an answer song to "Ode to Billie Joe." Nowadays, it's better known as "The Clothesline Saga" from the Basement Tapes, but it's original title was simply "Answer to Ode."

I've never heard it either, but his body was thrown into the Tallahatchie River in 1955, that's fact, and I have trouble believing that and the reference in the song from 1967 are mere coincidences. Anything else is conjecture (the lyrics don't really say).

Edited October 1, 2007 by felser

[Alexander]

This is the first time I've ever heard of the murder of Emmett Till linked to "Ode to Billie Joe." I've heard a lot of theories, however, about what was thrown off of the bridge (the theory I heard the most was that it was a stillborn/aborted baby). Dylan, who did record a ballad about Emmett Till (I have a demo recording on the "Great White Wonder" boot), also recorded an answer song to "Ode to Billie Joe." Nowadays, it's better known as "The Clothesline Saga" from the Basement Tapes, but it's original title was simply "Answer to Ode."

I've never heard it either, but his body was thrown into the Tallahatchie River in 1955, that's fact, and I have trouble believing that and the reference in the song from 1967 are mere coincidences. Anything else is conjecture (the lyrics don't really say).

I have no doubt that Gentry was aware of the significance of the Tallahatchie river and its connection to Till's murder, but I'm just not sure that it was her intention to link Billie Joe to that crime.

[rostasi]

With my bitter dislike for Dylan in tow,

I could be wrong on this, but I thought

that "Clothesline Saga" was his parody

of this song - one that he actually thought

was an awful song.

[rockefeller center]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode_to_Billie_Joe

[JSngry]

By that time the answer is "a recognizable tune to play at gigs" for white audiences. Nothing wrong musically.

Yeah, it's really just an expanded-from blues.

I started playing it a few years ago. It's good to blow on.

[JSngry]

Remember the key line "He and Billie Joe was throwin' somethin' off of Tallahatchie Bridge?".

Not sure that it matters, but it's "she", not "he".

[Dan Gould]

By that time the answer is "a recognizable tune to play at gigs" for white audiences. Nothing wrong musically.

Yeah, it's really just an expanded-from blues.

I started playing it a few years ago. It's good to blow on.

Finally, an answer to my question.

Damn thread got hijacked in the first post.

[felser]

Not hijacked, just a series of individual and collective improvisations on the changes. It all comes back around.

Edited October 1, 2007 by felser

[felser]

Remember the key line "He and Billie Joe was throwin' somethin' off of Tallahatchie Bridge?".

Not sure that it matters, but it's "she", not "he".

Indeed it is. I was trying to type quickly and continue conversation with my wife on different topic at the same time.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Not hijacked, just a series of individual and collective improvisations on the changes. It all comes back around.

MG

[Tom Storer]

Joe Pass did a version on "Intercontinental." I doubt very much Gentry was making reference to the Emmett Till story. Nothing about the song other than the mention of the Tallahatchie bridge seems to make even the slightest allusion to racial injustice in the south, the Civil Rights movement, turbulent social change of the postwar era, or anything other than the vague and tragic story of young love ending nowhere.

[felser]

Joe Pass did a version on "Intercontinental." I doubt very much Gentry was making reference to the Emmett Till story. Nothing about the song other than the mention of the Tallahatchie bridge seems to make even the slightest allusion to racial injustice in the south, the Civil Rights movement, turbulent social change of the postwar era, or anything other than the vague and tragic story of young love ending nowhere.

You may well be right, but maybe from the points of view of the characters (and of a lot of people in the South then), there were no Civil Rights if you weren't white, there was no such thing as white-on-black racial injustice, and turbulant social change is a threat to be either denied or fought against. I lived in Huntsville, Alabama iin 1965-67, and there were still two water fountains ('white' and 'colored') and three bathrooms ('men', 'women' and 'colored') in some of the local places, and crosses were burnt on the hill every Friday night. And "Eve of Destruction" was banned where I lived, even though it was a #1 song nationally. I never heard it until I visited the north in the summer. "Ode to Billie Joe" never says WHAT was going on, so purposefully leaves itself open to any number of interpretations. That's some of what was so wondrous about it.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Joe Pass did a version on "Intercontinental." I doubt very much Gentry was making reference to the Emmett Till story. Nothing about the song other than the mention of the Tallahatchie bridge seems to make even the slightest allusion to racial injustice in the south, the Civil Rights movement, turbulent social change of the postwar era, or anything other than the vague and tragic story of young love ending nowhere.

You may well be right, but maybe from the points of view of the characters (and of a lot of people in the South then), there were no Civil Rights if you weren't white, there was no such thing as white-on-black racial injustice, and turbulant social change is a threat to be either denied or fought against. I lived in Huntsville, Alabama iin 1965-67, and there were still two water fountains ('white' and 'colored') and three bathrooms ('men', 'women' and 'colored') in some of the local places, and crosses were burnt on the hill every Friday night. And "Eve of Destruction" was banned where I lived, even though it was a #1 song nationally. I never heard it until I visited the north in the summer. "Ode to Billie Joe" never says WHAT was going on, so purposefully leaves itself open to any number of interpretations. That's some of what was so wondrous about it.

In the light of what you've said, it seems that, had she been more obvious about it, the record might have been banned.

MG

[Neal Pomea]

Things can certainly be thrown off that bridge without it being linked to Emmet Till. The lyrics of the song say a girl who looked like the singer and Billie Joe drop something off the Talahatchie bridge. It was two grown men who murdered Till. They confessed in Look magazine just weeks after their acquittal. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/till/sfeature...confession.html

[danasgoodstuff]

Ode to Billy Joe has no more to do with Emmet Til than it does with the native american's from whom the name Talahatchie presumably came...

[Teasing the Korean]

Pretty gutsy stuff for a white southern woman to be writing and singing about in 1967, so I hand it to Gentry...

Everyone assumed she was black at the time, when the record first hit. It was a surprise to many when she was introduced on variety shows or whatever and a white woman walked out.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Teasing the Korean

[MoGrubb]

So, what did they throw off the Whatchamacallit Bridge? An aborted fetus, mother-in-law, what? I heard the song when it first came out, never paid much attention to lyrics. It's fun to blow to though.

Edited October 2, 2007 by MoGrubb

[Tom Storer]

Pretty gutsy stuff for a white southern woman to be writing and singing about in 1967, so I hand it to Gentry...

Everyone assumed she was black at the time, when the record first hit. It was a surprise to many when she was introduced on variety shows or whatever and a white woman walked out.

Funny--I remember when it was a radio hit and I always assumed she was white. I was a kid at the time.

[Teasing the Korean]

Funny--I remember when it was a radio hit and I always assumed she was white. I was a kid at the time.

Well, I said "everyone," but it was a common assumption and was even reported at the time.

[Free For All]

Funny--I remember when it was a radio hit and I always assumed she was white. I was a kid at the time.

Well, I said "everyone," but it was a common assumption and was even reported at the time.

I was fairly young also, but I remember seeing her on various variety shows of that era singing the song.

It was "reported" that she was black? Just curious, what does that mean?