New Blue Note 45rpm sets

[porcy62]

I hear you, and of course there is a market for this stuff. I just find the quest for audio perfection puzzling. The same stuff keeps getting reissued and "improved." Despite what others have said, 50 year old audio tape is not indestructible. And those masters are going to get older and more fragile.

Working every day with video tapes, I know very well what you're saying about ageing. At the same time in order to preserve them, you have to play them once in a while, so I don't see any huge damage for master tapes, but I may be wrong about audio tapes.

The point is that back then they had a fresh master and poor playback systems, so the LP mastering was adressed to those stuff. Now they have better playback system and an old master. Hard to pick a choice, one must go different for every title.

[six string]

I mentioned this once before on this basic topic, but Steve Hoffman called my assertion that mag tape has a limited life span "fiction." To be more precise, he asked "Where did you hear that fiction?" It's ludicrous to think that anything on this planet doesn't have a life span, so I don't know where he was coming from, other than protecting his job security since all he works with is old tape.

I wish these reissue companies would come up with a different list of albums to put out besides the same titles. Unfortunately they are in the business to sell and those top 25 or so titles they keep releasing do sell.

That's a good point about needing to play the tapes occasionally. They are going to disentigrate whether they are played or not. Keeping them locked away forever isn't going to protect them from aging though I realise that playing them a lot is not good for them.

Chuck, are you totally against any use of these old tapes, i.e. keeping them stored forever or do you think they should be pulled out after so many years and played again for the purpose of a reissue or plain protection of the source?

[Teasing the Korean]

I mentioned this once before on this basic topic, but Steve Hoffman called my assertion that mag tape has a limited life span "fiction."

I have handled on numerous occasions old reels of tape recorded in professional studios and I PROMISE you that their condition can vary greatly. Whoever Steve Hoffman is, he either has experienced this firsthand, or he's lying.

[clifford_thornton]

Uh, as long as they're stored properly you shouldn't have any problem. SH is pretty damn near right. Of course, it depends on the material that makes up the tape - I believe that cellulose-based tape has a more pronounced degradation rate (naturally).

[RDK]

Uh, as long as they're stored properly you shouldn't have any problem. SH is pretty damn near right. Of course, it depends on the material that makes up the tape - I believe that cellulose-based tape has a more pronounced degradation rate (naturally).

From what i've heard, most of the older tape stocks of the 50s and 60s are pretty damn hearty. It was only when they changed the formula in the 70s that things got messy, requiring "baking" and stuff like that. Hoffman works with old tapes all the time and has done a remarkable job over the years locating and using the original masters rather than copy tapes; I'd give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the structural integrity of the tapes.

[clifford_thornton]

Right, in the 70s they switched to cellulose for the binding agent, which degrades and peels from the base layer. That's "sticky shed."

[.:.impossible]

Didn't Brandon Burke write an article for Wax Poetics on this very subject?

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

I just find the quest for audio perfection puzzling.

I find that comment puzzling.

[porcy62]

Uh, as long as they're stored properly you shouldn't have any problem. SH is pretty damn near right. Of course, it depends on the material that makes up the tape - I believe that cellulose-based tape has a more pronounced degradation rate (naturally).

From what i've heard, most of the older tape stocks of the 50s and 60s are pretty damn hearty. It was only when they changed the formula in the 70s that things got messy, requiring "baking" and stuff like that. Hoffman works with old tapes all the time and has done a remarkable job over the years locating and using the original masters rather than copy tapes; I'd give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the structural integrity of the tapes.

It could be, actually older "Ampex" (one inch) videotapes seems lasting better then later formats like U-Matic or early Betacam SP, whatever the storage conditions. Italian national broadcasting (RAI) never had such great facilities in term of storage. Though, IF videotapes are made of the same stuff of audiotapes, ageing is not good in my daily experience. Now what about a glass of twelve years old single malt, (a thing that acquires taste with years) ?

[clifford_thornton]

Didn't Brandon Burke write an article for Wax Poetics on this very subject?

Yeah, he did. I've also read a fair amount on it in my archival coursework.

[Teasing the Korean]

Will you guys go out on a date with me sometime?

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Sure.....but only if you promise to wear this little leather mask and sing all my favorite Zappa tunes about Mary and the telefunken U47 on the bus?

[porcy62]

Sure.....but only if you promise to wear this little leather mask and sing all my favorite Zappa tunes about Mary and the telefunken U47 on the bus?

Is it you, Suzy Creamcheese?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

When I talked to Michael Cuscuna about this, he said that the tapes are fine and that as long as normal care is taken, they will remain that way. When I asked him about Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" and how it sounded stretched, he said that it didn't sound that way until someone did something wrong with it. Most of them were damaged from improper use.

In order for Classic Records to get these tapes, they have to insure them for big bucks. Hoffman was saying that the "Blue Train" master tape was insured for $100,000 or $500,000, I forget which. No matter, Classics knows that if they screw the tape up, they are on the hook for some big dough.

[paul secor]

When I talked to Michael Cuscuna about this, he said that the tapes are fine and that as long as normal care is taken, they will remain that way. When I asked him about Horace Silver's "Song For My Father" and how it sounded stretched, he said that it didn't sound that way until someone did something wrong with it. Most of them were damaged from improper use.

In order for Classic Records to get these tapes, they have to insure them for big bucks. Hoffman was saying that the "Blue Train" master tape was insured for $100,000 or $500,000, I forget which. No matter, Classics knows that if they screw the tape up, they are on the hook for some big dough.

Or the insurance company is.

[sidewinder]

Interesting comment recently on the Hoffman Forums. The original plans to issue Wayne Shorter's 'Speak No Evil' on the MM series seem to have been ditched in favour of Shorter's 'JuJu'. Apparently the sonics on 'Speak No Evil' were not great - wonder if there has been some tape deterioration? Never the greatest BN session sonically but I don't recall the sonics of the original LP being that bad.

Edited August 9, 2008 by sidewinder

[Jay]

Speaking of the Hoffman Board - I continue to be shocked that there are folks there who are getting their first exposure to jazz via these reissue programs. Wish I had that kind of dough to burn.

Which reminds me, I don't have all of them, but the few that I do from either series has proven rather revelatory (and yes, expensive). In particular, Lee Way. WOW!

With a copy of Soul Station recently going for almost a grand, I am happy I have the MM version.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Interesting comment recently on the Hoffman Forums. The original plans to issue Wayne Shorter's 'Speak No Evil' on the MM series seem to have been ditched in favour of Shorter's 'JuJu'. Apparently the sonics on 'Speak No Evil' were not great - wonder if there has been some tape deterioration? Never the greatest BN session sonically but I don't recall the sonics of the original LP being that bad.

Is JuJu on the SACD list as well?

[Christiern]

I'm still waiting for the UR (Ultimate Retro) series...

[sidewinder]

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

I'm still waiting for the UR (Ultimate Retro) series...

The manufacturer won't ship to the Outer limits of Fringedom...so you're screwed.

[AllenLowe]

well, going back in this thread, if those masters are so damn valuable they should:

1) put them on another reel with dolby sr

2) transfer them into a high resolution digital format

and than store the damn things carefully -

for all the problems with digital, if the original is a good analog source, the digital copy (with the right equipment, converters. etc) will be faithful -

[captainwrong]

Speaking of the Hoffman Board - I continue to be shocked that there are folks there who are getting their first exposure to jazz via these reissue programs. Wish I had that kind of dough to burn.

I think for most (if not all) of the folks you're talking about, it has little to do with the music and everything to do with the medium and the (re)mastering.

[Christiern]

That is the boring aspect of that board. To most of the members, music seems to be secondary, unless it is some rock stuff from their teen-to-yuppi years. But I guess it isn't boring to them, so we ought not knock it--they probably would find the Big "O" boring—what??? They take the music seriously?

[RDK]

That is the boring aspect of that board. To most of the members, music seems to be secondary, unless it is some rock stuff from their teen-to-yuppi years. But I guess it isn't boring to them, so we ought not knock it--they probably would find the Big "O" boring—what??? They take the music seriously?

Well that's the thing they seem reluctant to admit over there: it is predominantly an audophile music forum - not just a music forum - so the emphasis is understandably on the sonic stuff. And yes, as Chris says, much of it is boring - especially if you're there for the music.