Christiern Posted January 21, 2008 Report Posted January 21, 2008 Goodwill? That's where I picked up the Blakey cylinder. Along with Albert Ayler's great "Dance Time" album. Quote
michel1969 Posted January 21, 2008 Report Posted January 21, 2008 These things are really that good... I'd own the both of them if they were 33 1/3 rpm LPs. I am not getting into this 45 rpm fetish. And I still don't agree that cutting them at 45 rpm makes them sound any better. It just adds cost and makes them more expensive. Agreed. I'm not interested in having to get up after every song or two for just a little bit better sound. However, when they reissue Basra, I will make the exception. What blows my mind is that there are people on the Hoffman board buying these and they don't listen to jazz. Of course they might change their mind after hearing them, but damn, $50.00 a pop and you don't know anything about the music? Agreed to everything. This 45rpm reissue is just an intend to create another marketed driven mania. IMO Hoffman and his clique of arrogant know-it-all are nothing else but businessmen. Now regarding "Basra" bought by non jazz addicts, its another proof of the intelectual vacuity of some audophile onanists. Quote
street singer Posted January 21, 2008 Report Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) I dunno, guys... I understand the opinions being expressed here. Really, I do... And I expected most here to have a negative opinion of these reissues. These forums are much more about 'the music' than they are about sound quality, format, presentation, mastering, etc, etc. As it should be. That's the very reason why I prefer this board to, say, something like the Hoffman forums. However... Have any of you who are slamming these reissues actually heard them? Or heard any of the 45RPM Fantasy reissues put out by Analogue Productions over the past several years? I can't help but think that if you had, you may feel differently. They truly are something special. (The 45RPM edition of Sonny Rollins' 'Way Out West' is absolutely the most 'real' sounding record I have ever heard...without question). Back to these Blue Notes. I love this music. I have heard the majority of the albums to be released in this series by way of the CD reissues. I'm not buying these in the hopes that I may like them, or simply because they were mastered by Steve Hoffman, or even as a monetary investment. I'm buying them because I know and love the music, and I know that these reissues will be superior to any previous vinyl reissues and vastly superior to their CD counterparts... I also know that if I don't get 'em now, they'll be gone in no time and I'll never forgive myself for missing out on this opportunity. Seriously - I know all of you are fans of the music before any of the other stuff. And, because of that, I urge you to give these things a chance. Not suggesting to subscribe to the series - I feel a bit crazy for doing that myself... But, pick one. If you're a Mobley fan, pick up a copy of 'Soul Station' when it comes out and compare it to any other version of it that you have. Or pick up 'Out To Lunch', or 'Basra', or 'Leapin' and Lopin'...any of them... just to see what the fuss is about. I swear, there's living, breathing music in those grooves... Edited January 21, 2008 by street singer Quote
Teasing the Korean Posted January 21, 2008 Report Posted January 21, 2008 Have any of you who are slamming these reissues actually heard them? Or heard any of the 45RPM Fantasy reissues put out by Analogue Productions over the past several years? I can't help but think that if you had, you may feel differently. They truly are something special. (The 45RPM edition of Sonny Rollins' 'Way Out West' is absolutely the most 'real' sounding record I have ever heard...without question)... I think the larger issue here is subjecting the master tapes to unnecessary wear and tear just to capitalize on the obsessive/compulsive nature of a few fringe listeners. They may sound great, but frankly I could care fucking less. Quote
street singer Posted January 21, 2008 Report Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) I think the larger issue here is subjecting the master tapes to unnecessary wear and tear just to capitalize on the obsessive/compulsive nature of a few fringe listeners. They may sound great, but frankly I could care fucking less. Okay. Soooo... This view of 'subjecting the master tapes to unnecessary wear and tear' applies to any reissue campaign then, correct? Or is it the limited nature of these pressings (2,500 copies) that makes this particular wear and tear unacceptable - as opposed to, say, the RVG CD reissues which, being printed in larger numers, makes that particular wear and tear acceptable? So... What about our beloved Mosaic reissues? Those are limited. How are those different than these vinyl reissues? I see where you're coming from...I think. However, what good is the master tape if it's just sitting somewhere rotting away, never to be seen (or heard) again? May as well just copy it to a digital format and throw it out with the trash. How depressing is that? The master tapes are still in decent shape, as far as I know. The fact that a company is willing to put the time and effort into preserving the sound of those tapes onto vinyl - a superior format to CD, in my opinion - before the vinyl format dies away completely should be commended. Music Matters, Ltd. is doing these things right, as far as I'm concerned. These records aren't being sourced from CD's and pressed onto cheap, noisy vinyl, slapped into a flimsy sleeve and released into the market to make a quick buck (looking at you, Scorpio). The love and respect for the music is obvious when you hear how they sound and see how they are being presented. Yes, they're expensive...and yes, they're limited. I wish that weren't the case. I don't see how they can do this any other way, though...unfortunately. Edited January 21, 2008 by street singer Quote
porcy62 Posted January 21, 2008 Report Posted January 21, 2008 I dunno, guys... I understand the opinions being expressed here. Really, I do... And I expected most here to have a negative opinion of these reissues. These forums are much more about 'the music' than they are about sound quality, format, presentation, mastering, etc, etc. As it should be. That's the very reason why I prefer this board to, say, something like the Hoffman forums. However... Have any of you who are slamming these reissues actually heard them? Or heard any of the 45RPM Fantasy reissues put out by Analogue Productions over the past several years? I can't help but think that if you had, you may feel differently. They truly are something special. (The 45RPM edition of Sonny Rollins' 'Way Out West' is absolutely the most 'real' sounding record I have ever heard...without question). Back to these Blue Notes. I love this music. I have heard the majority of the albums to be released in this series by way of the CD reissues. I'm not buying these in the hopes that I may like them, or simply because they were mastered by Steve Hoffman, or even as a monetary investment. I'm buying them because I know and love the music, and I know that these reissues will be superior to any previous vinyl reissues and vastly superior to their CD counterparts... I also know that if I don't get 'em now, they'll be gone in no time and I'll never forgive myself for missing out on this opportunity. Seriously - I know all of you are fans of the music before any of the other stuff. And, because of that, I urge you to give these things a chance. Not suggesting to subscribe to the series - I feel a bit crazy for doing that myself... But, pick one. If you're a Mobley fan, pick up a copy of 'Soul Station' when it comes out and compare it to any other version of it that you have. Or pick up 'Out To Lunch', or 'Basra', or 'Leapin' and Lopin'...any of them... just to see what the fuss is about. I swear, there's living, breathing music in those grooves... I did, I got the test pressing Ron Rambach (MusicMatters) shipped to me. As I already said in this thread, the Parlan sounds gorgeous, far better then the Mosaic's reissue I have. (I haven't any original or different pressings of this title, so I couldn't compare.) In general I personally dislike the way BN sounds on RVG Remastered. And I am a vinyl freak so I prefer a priori a record rather then a cd. And I prefer a worn Liberty pressing then any Low Rez digital reissue. And I don't care about SACD or any digital Hi-Rez format. And I think that spending hours to compare ten different remasterings of the same record is a huge waste of time. (And I'll not doing it in the next future.) And I admit that I am a friend of Ron Rambach. And I admit that I hate Hoffman's (or his worshippers) attitude to badmouth every other sound engineers on the earth. And BTW Rollins' Way Out West is one the best recordings in the jazz history (thanks Roy DuNann) And I have a pristine mono original pressing of Way Out West that I bought from Ron Rambach that sounds beyond your imagination. So this is not the right recording for boasting Hoffman's skills. Said that, I think that, to my hears, the 45rpm I got sounds great. Said that, I'll leave to your judgement if all the issue about Hoffman is a marketing trick to steal money or is a real commitment in the surviving of the music. For sure Ron Rambach is man of honour, deeply eager in jazz and and its heritage, so I subscribed his reissue project, I am not really sure about SH's honour, aka I'll not subscribe his ZZTop's reissue project. Quote
Christiern Posted January 21, 2008 Report Posted January 21, 2008 Fear of wear on the master tapes is really an artificial issue if the playback is handled correctly, which it probably is. Quote
street singer Posted January 21, 2008 Report Posted January 21, 2008 I did, I got the test pressing Ron Rambach (MusicMatters) shipped to me. As I already said in this thread, the Parlan sounds gorgeous, far better then the Mosaic's reissue I have. (I haven't any original or different pressings of this title, so I couldn't compare.) In general I personally dislike the way BN sounds on RVG Remastered. And I am a vinyl freak so I prefer a priori a record rather then a cd. And I prefer a worn Liberty pressing then any Low Rez digital reissue. And I don't care about SACD or any digital Hi-Rez format. And I think that spending hours to compare ten different remasterings of the same record is a huge waste of time. (And I'll not doing it in the next future.) And I admit that I am a friend of Ron Rambach. And I admit that I hate Hoffman's (or his worshippers) attitude to badmouth every other sound engineers on the earth. And BTW Rollins' Way Out West is one the best recordings in the jazz history (thanks Roy DuNann) And I have a pristine mono original pressing of Way Out West that I bought from Ron Rambach that sounds beyond your imagination. So this is not the right recording for boasting Hoffman's skills. Said that, I think that, to my hears, the 45rpm I got sounds great. Said that, I'll leave to your judgement if all the issue about Hoffman is a marketing trick to steal money or is a real commitment in the surviving of the music. For sure Ron Rambach is man of honour, deeply eager in jazz and and its heritage, so I subscribed his reissue project, I am not really sure about SH's honour, aka I'll not subscribe his ZZTop's reissue project. Well put. I'm in complete agreement with you. My impressions of Music Matters, and Ron Raumbach, is that they are sincere in what they are doing and are doing it for the right reasons. As for Hoffman, well... He was hired to make sure they sound great. End of story. I've no doubt that he will do that job to the best of his abilities...and his abilities are often remarkable, IMO. But, yes - the Hoffman 'cult' does to tend to leave a bad taste in one's mouth... When I read those boards, I'm often left with the impression that many people there will buy a record or CD simply because it was mastered by this guy, regardless of the musical content - a phenomenon that I find very odd. The most recent example, and most relevant to this discussion, are folks that are buying these Blue Note reissues who have never so much as listened to jazz before... Wow. That I just don't get... Regarding 'Way Out West' and all of those early Contemporary records - yeah, Roy DuNann definitely worked some magic in those days... Those recordings are phenomenal. The only comparison I can make to the 45RPM pressing of 'Way Out West' is with the original OJC CD reissue - and that is truly no comparison. I'm sure that an original mono pressing, in pristine condition, sounds unbelievable. Quote
street singer Posted January 21, 2008 Report Posted January 21, 2008 I did, I got the test pressing Ron Rambach (MusicMatters) shipped to me. As I already said in this thread, the Parlan sounds gorgeous, far better then the Mosaic's reissue I have. (I haven't any original or different pressings of this title, so I couldn't compare.) In general I personally dislike the way BN sounds on RVG Remastered. And I am a vinyl freak so I prefer a priori a record rather then a cd. And I prefer a worn Liberty pressing then any Low Rez digital reissue. And I don't care about SACD or any digital Hi-Rez format. And I think that spending hours to compare ten different remasterings of the same record is a huge waste of time. (And I'll not doing it in the next future.) And I admit that I am a friend of Ron Rambach. And I admit that I hate Hoffman's (or his worshippers) attitude to badmouth every other sound engineers on the earth. And BTW Rollins' Way Out West is one the best recordings in the jazz history (thanks Roy DuNann) And I have a pristine mono original pressing of Way Out West that I bought from Ron Rambach that sounds beyond your imagination. So this is not the right recording for boasting Hoffman's skills. Said that, I think that, to my hears, the 45rpm I got sounds great. Said that, I'll leave to your judgement if all the issue about Hoffman is a marketing trick to steal money or is a real commitment in the surviving of the music. For sure Ron Rambach is man of honour, deeply eager in jazz and and its heritage, so I subscribed his reissue project, I am not really sure about SH's honour, aka I'll not subscribe his ZZTop's reissue project. Well put. I'm in complete agreement with you. My impressions of Music Matters, and Ron Raumbach, is that they are sincere in what they are doing and are doing it for the right reasons. As for Hoffman, well... He was hired to make sure they sound great. End of story. I've no doubt that he will do that job to the best of his abilities...and his abilities are often remarkable, IMO. But, yes - the Hoffman 'cult' does to tend to leave a bad taste in one's mouth... When I read those boards, I'm often left with the impression that many people there will buy a record or CD simply because it was mastered by this guy, regardless of the musical content - a phenomenon that I find very odd. The most recent example, and most relevant to this discussion, are folks that are buying these Blue Note reissues who have never so much as listened to jazz before... Wow. That I just don't get... Regarding 'Way Out West' and all of those early Contemporary records - yeah, Roy DuNann definitely worked some magic in those days... Those recordings are phenomenal. The only comparison I can make to the 45RPM pressing of 'Way Out West' is with the original OJC CD reissue - and that is truly no comparison. I'm sure that an original mono pressing, in pristine condition, sounds unbelievable. Quote
porcy62 Posted January 21, 2008 Report Posted January 21, 2008 Regarding 'Way Out West' and all of those early Contemporary records - yeah, Roy DuNann definitely worked some magic in those days... Those recordings are phenomenal. The only comparison I can make to the 45RPM pressing of 'Way Out West' is with the original OJC CD reissue - and that is truly no comparison. I'm sure that an original mono pressing, in pristine condition, sounds unbelievable. Absolutely. The good old Brownie would say: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate...and 'Way Out West' in the new arrivals' shelf...." Quote
six string Posted January 22, 2008 Report Posted January 22, 2008 (edited) These things are really that good... I'd own the both of them if they were 33 1/3 rpm LPs. I am not getting into this 45 rpm fetish. And I still don't agree that cutting them at 45 rpm makes them sound any better. It just adds cost and makes them more expensive. Agreed. I'm not interested in having to get up after every song or two for just a little bit better sound. However, when they reissue Basra, I will make the exception. What blows my mind is that there are people on the Hoffman board buying these and they don't listen to jazz. Of course they might change their mind after hearing them, but damn, $50.00 a pop and you don't know anything about the music? Agreed to everything. This 45rpm reissue is just an intend to create another marketed driven mania. IMO Hoffman and his clique of arrogant know-it-all are nothing else but businessmen. Now regarding "Basra" bought by non jazz addicts, its another proof of the intelectual vacuity of some audophile onanists. Just to be sure you didn't misunderstand. Basra hasn't been released yet. So no one, jazz fans or otherwise is buying it. I saw it on the list that they plan to release. It's not very well known compared to most of the other titles lined up for release, so it's possible that it won't happen. It wouldn't be the first time that title was dropped from the release list. Edited January 22, 2008 by six string Quote
six string Posted January 22, 2008 Report Posted January 22, 2008 ...What blows my mind is that there are people on the Hoffman board buying these and they don't listen to jazz... What blows me away even more than that, if you read that thread, is that there is market for $50 audiophile pressings of ZZ Top albums. Why not just go to the Goodwill? The ZZ Top album is only $25.00. It's still too much though. I have an original pressing I bought two months ago for $3.00 that sounds amazing. The cover has a fair amount of ringwear on it, but the lp is in amazingly good shape. I can't imagine this reissue sounding 8 times better. It's just not possible imo. Even if it was, how much do you think I really care? I mean it's ZZ Freakin' Top. Quote
porcy62 Posted January 22, 2008 Report Posted January 22, 2008 I did, I got the test pressing Ron Rambach (MusicMatters) shipped to me. As I already said in this thread, the Parlan sounds gorgeous, far better then the Mosaic's reissue I have. (I haven't any original or different pressings of this title, so I couldn't compare.) In general I personally dislike the way BN sounds on RVG Remastered. And I am a vinyl freak so I prefer a priori a record rather then a cd. And I prefer a worn Liberty pressing then any Low Rez digital reissue. And I don't care about SACD or any digital Hi-Rez format. And I think that spending hours to compare ten different remasterings of the same record is a huge waste of time. (And I'll not doing it in the next future.) And I admit that I am a friend of Ron Rambach. And I admit that I hate Hoffman's (or his worshippers) attitude to badmouth every other sound engineers on the earth. And BTW Rollins' Way Out West is one the best recordings in the jazz history (thanks Roy DuNann) And I have a pristine mono original pressing of Way Out West that I bought from Ron Rambach that sounds beyond your imagination. So this is not the right recording for boasting Hoffman's skills. Said that, I think that, to my hears, the 45rpm I got sounds great. Said that, I'll leave to your judgement if all the issue about Hoffman is a marketing trick to steal money or is a real commitment in the surviving of the music. For sure Ron Rambach is man of honour, deeply eager in jazz and and its heritage, so I subscribed his reissue project, I am not really sure about SH's honour, aka I'll not subscribe his ZZTop's reissue project. Well put. I'm in complete agreement with you. My impressions of Music Matters, and Ron Raumbach, is that they are sincere in what they are doing and are doing it for the right reasons. As for Hoffman, well... He was hired to make sure they sound great. End of story. I've no doubt that he will do that job to the best of his abilities...and his abilities are often remarkable, IMO. But, yes - the Hoffman 'cult' does to tend to leave a bad taste in one's mouth... When I read those boards, I'm often left with the impression that many people there will buy a record or CD simply because it was mastered by this guy, regardless of the musical content - a phenomenon that I find very odd. The most recent example, and most relevant to this discussion, are folks that are buying these Blue Note reissues who have never so much as listened to jazz before... Wow. That I just don't get... Regarding 'Way Out West' and all of those early Contemporary records - yeah, Roy DuNann definitely worked some magic in those days... Those recordings are phenomenal. The only comparison I can make to the 45RPM pressing of 'Way Out West' is with the original OJC CD reissue - and that is truly no comparison. I'm sure that an original mono pressing, in pristine condition, sounds unbelievable. Another little thing. Ron is a jazz maniac since his youth, he knew and attended concerts of most of the cats he'll going to reissue, he has the originals in his collection and he has good ears so I am pretty confident that in the Music Matters reissues Hank Mobley will sound like Hank Mobley and Lee Morgan will sound like Lee Morgan as far as the condition of the master tapes will help him. Quote
RDK Posted January 22, 2008 Report Posted January 22, 2008 I did, I got the test pressing Ron Rambach (MusicMatters) shipped to me. As I already said in this thread, the Parlan sounds gorgeous, far better then the Mosaic's reissue I have. (I haven't any original or different pressings of this title, so I couldn't compare.) In general I personally dislike the way BN sounds on RVG Remastered. And I am a vinyl freak so I prefer a priori a record rather then a cd. And I prefer a worn Liberty pressing then any Low Rez digital reissue. And I don't care about SACD or any digital Hi-Rez format. And I think that spending hours to compare ten different remasterings of the same record is a huge waste of time. (And I'll not doing it in the next future.) And I admit that I am a friend of Ron Rambach. And I admit that I hate Hoffman's (or his worshippers) attitude to badmouth every other sound engineers on the earth. And BTW Rollins' Way Out West is one the best recordings in the jazz history (thanks Roy DuNann) And I have a pristine mono original pressing of Way Out West that I bought from Ron Rambach that sounds beyond your imagination. So this is not the right recording for boasting Hoffman's skills. Said that, I think that, to my hears, the 45rpm I got sounds great. Said that, I'll leave to your judgement if all the issue about Hoffman is a marketing trick to steal money or is a real commitment in the surviving of the music. For sure Ron Rambach is man of honour, deeply eager in jazz and and its heritage, so I subscribed his reissue project, I am not really sure about SH's honour, aka I'll not subscribe his ZZTop's reissue project. Well put. I'm in complete agreement with you. My impressions of Music Matters, and Ron Raumbach, is that they are sincere in what they are doing and are doing it for the right reasons. As for Hoffman, well... He was hired to make sure they sound great. End of story. I've no doubt that he will do that job to the best of his abilities...and his abilities are often remarkable, IMO. But, yes - the Hoffman 'cult' does to tend to leave a bad taste in one's mouth... When I read those boards, I'm often left with the impression that many people there will buy a record or CD simply because it was mastered by this guy, regardless of the musical content - a phenomenon that I find very odd. The most recent example, and most relevant to this discussion, are folks that are buying these Blue Note reissues who have never so much as listened to jazz before... Wow. That I just don't get... Agree too. I have no problem with these reissues save jealousy that I can't afford them. Of the LPs that I've heard, nothing else sounded better. The claim about "wear & tear" is ridiculous, as Chris and others have pointed out. Anyone experienced in working with audio tape will confirm that it's hardy stuff if handled correctly. I actually called out someone of the Hoffman board the other day about "getting into" jazz via this series. It is putting sound over music, imo, but on the other hand I suppose it can be a good thing if only because it exposes someone new to the music. Meanwhile, I'm saving up for Basra and maybe a few other favorites. Quote
street singer Posted January 22, 2008 Report Posted January 22, 2008 The good old Brownie would say: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate...and 'Way Out West' in the new arrivals' shelf...." Quote
sidewinder Posted January 22, 2008 Report Posted January 22, 2008 As I already said in this thread, the Parlan sounds gorgeous, far better then the Mosaic's reissue I have. Oh dear. Looks like I'm in for the first batch. Thanks porcy.. Quote
ASNL77 Posted May 14, 2008 Report Posted May 14, 2008 Up for this thread. I am listening to the Hank Mobley 'Soul Station'. It is to die for. What an amazing job they have done with that one. The gatefold sleeve is a big plus too. Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted May 14, 2008 Report Posted May 14, 2008 None of the "positive" posters have ever worked with old tapes. There is only "so much" life. I fear for original sources. Quote
RDK Posted May 15, 2008 Report Posted May 15, 2008 None of the "positive" posters have ever worked with old tapes. There is only "so much" life. I fear for original sources. So I guess we should just say "good enough" and send the shit off to Iron Mountain. Quote
Teasing the Korean Posted May 15, 2008 Report Posted May 15, 2008 None of the "positive" posters have ever worked with old tapes. There is only "so much" life. I fear for original sources. So I guess we should just say "good enough" and send the shit off to Iron Mountain. Better than constantly reusing the tape for the sake of a few delusional obsessives. Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted May 15, 2008 Report Posted May 15, 2008 None of the "positive" posters have ever worked with old tapes. There is only "so much" life. I fear for original sources. So I guess we should just say "good enough" and send the shit off to Iron Mountain. For the future, you are correct. If you want a new version every couple of years I am you enemy. Quote
Teasing the Korean Posted May 15, 2008 Report Posted May 15, 2008 If you want a new version every couple of years I am you enemy. Actually, record labels are fueled by this obsessive mania, these delusionaires that repeatedly spend money on the same titles. Quote
porcy62 Posted May 15, 2008 Report Posted May 15, 2008 (edited) If you want a new version every couple of years I am you enemy. Actually, record labels are fueled by this obsessive mania, these delusionaires that repeatedly spend money on the same titles. Exactly. And this poses a long list of questions about music business. 1) Master tapes are private's owned, I spent money to record them, (or buy the copyrights), why should I care about music rather then business? 2) If I care about music who pays for the restoration and the storage of the tapes? 3) In the age of illegal downloading, obsessive maniacs are among the fews who are ready to pay big bucks for music (or the sound). Why blame them since they support the business? 4) If music is a public cultural heritage, should the Library of Congress buy the master tapes, preserve them and made available for free on the web lossless files? (In this case copyrights laws should be restricted in shorter term, 50 years or even less.) And we could pose more questions and open the usual can of worms. Edited May 15, 2008 by porcy62 Quote
Teasing the Korean Posted May 15, 2008 Report Posted May 15, 2008 I hear you, and of course there is a market for this stuff. I just find the quest for audio perfection puzzling. The same stuff keeps getting reissued and "improved." Despite what others have said, 50 year old audio tape is not indestructible. And those masters are going to get older and more fragile. Quote
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