New Blue Note 45rpm sets

[porcy62]

I found pretty ironic that a court of blind worshippers might damage the job and reputation of an admittely good professionist like SH.

[B. Clugston]

Maybe Hoffman will next "discover" an alternate take of "Totem Pole."

[Jay]

I heard back from Ron McMaster on the "lost" "The Sidewinder" master tape. He was a bit confused. He hadn't heard that anyone was having any problems finding that master. In fact, it's currently on his workstation for some work he's doing (that I'll try to get clearance to post more on this in the vinyl forum). He said the box looks like it was swapped because the old one wore out but that his old mastering notes for his CD work were still in there.

He also believes that this is the master that Rudy used.

Interesting. Hoffman implies that he just found this tape yesterday (or the day prior to the thread over there at any rate), so I wonder if it's the same "master" they're talking about - or how long Ron's had it "on his workstation."

Yes, it is the same master. Ron just got it yesterday. He said that someone definitely replaced the box and reels, most likely because the old ones wore out, but it's the one Steve Hoffman is talking about. His CD mastering notes are in the box and he knows this tape well.

He also said that if there was a 6 month search for a Blue Note master, he would have been called into it right away because he has his hands on them all the time. I imagine his mastering workstation would be one of the first places they'd look if a master got misplaced.

BTW, he pulled the tape to prepare an upcoming LP release. I asked him for some details of this new LP release and I hope to hear back so I can let you guys know.

Kevin

EDIT: For the record, I am not saying that Steve Hoffman is lying, just that he appears to have not used the right people at Blue Note to find the master. The impression I got from Cuscuna and McMaster was that they knew exactly where this tape was. Ron said that he got the right tape with one request. They don't know if someone messed with Hoffman or why he got the run-around, but they assured me that the tape was never "lost" on their end.

You better be careful, Kevin, you just might get banned over there.

Maybe Hoffman just happened to find these right next to the Buddy Holly tapes

[six string]

You-a bad boy Jay!

[adhoc]

Wow. Lots of bitching and moaning on this thread.

Lots of bullshit too.

1. So masters are for keeping and not using now. Uh-huh. So much for it's 'all about the music', huh? If it's a job worth doing, it's a job worth doing right and AFAIK that's what SH thinks he's doing. Comments by people on thread who have (gasp) - ACTUALLY HEARD THE 45RPM ISSUES - seem to support SH's 'vision' of how these albums should sound. Think about how similar adopting this ridiculous stance is to people who pay mucho $$$ for LPs, only to NEVER PLAY THEM. Why? Because they're 'historical artifacts, of course'! Y'know - 'collector items'! Let's completely ignore their ORIGINAL function, their PURPOSE FOR EXISTING!

2. If these 45rpm issues are the method by which new people get introduced to jazz, isn't that a good thing? Judging by the way some posters here talk, it would seem that the only Organissimo-approved 'right' way to get into jazz is through A. live performances (which so many of us do not have access to), or B. via a crappy sounding recording. So what if their first introduction to jazz is via an 'audiophile' release? What, that route isn't 'authentic' enough? We all want more people to appreciate jazz, but we only want them to 'find' their way into the genre in a way that we approve of, before we accept them into our 'club'? Wow, and you wonder why interest in jazz is dwindling. It's because of arrogant prick comments like that - that assume that somehow people who care how their music sounds are incapable of 'appreciating' jazz - that account for a lot of negativity towards 'highbrow' music.

3. Read the following sentence carefully: I love the music, and want it presented in the best possible way. Does that statement contradict itself? Many people here seem to think that is a contradiction of sorts, and that people who care about the sound AUTOMATICALLY don't care about the music. Well here is some news for you: IT ISN'T. If I like a particular album, I'll look for the BEST SOUNDING version of it because I think that's better. But NOT having a good sounding version of any album ISN'T going to prevent me from purchasing, listening to, and enjoying it. See where your argument falls down? Just because you're lazier/poorer, or have a higher threshold for poor fidelity, doesn't make you any more of a 'real' jazz lover.

4. What is the purpose of almost all JAZZ recordings? [exceptions include some Bill Evans albums, etc] To accurately reflect a LIVE EXPERIENCE. This isn't Pink Floyd, this is jazz. Having the original LPs as your 'reference' for remastering makes zero sense, unless they sound like the real thing. Case in point: we all know that RVG used compression. If your ultimate aim is a faithful reproduction of a live performance, that immediately rules out ALL his LPs as 'references'. This 45rpm series doesn't use compression. See how they're 'better' already? So why shouldn't a trumpet sound like a real live trumpet? Or can a recorded trumpet only sound like the RVG trumpet on the 1st RVG pressing?

Amazingly, most of the bitching here is done by people who don't have any intention to listen to these issues. Or by people who can't afford them and resent those who can. They don't own a single one, yet somehow feel qualified to pontificate on them, and to be taken seriously.

And clementine's posts are just disturbing. I've gone through them a few times and I don't understand his beef with SH. Sure the guy can be a bit snarky at times and is almost certainly flawed, but aren't we all?

Edited September 18, 2008 by adhoc

[adhoc]

From that same thread:

Is that japanese King from the original master also?

No. No King is from a master. Tape copies.

Wait - didn't King have free rein to anything they wanted, even if for a while? I've been told that so many times it's a little odd to hear something to the contrary. Anyhow, they sound excellent. My own listening tests (and others) usually result in a dead heat with the original issues.

Free reign? You mean to release anything? Beats me.

The Master Tapes have been in California since Liberty. King got copies. King had great mastering. That's the difference. I've cut records from copies with wonderful result. Don't get so hung up on the copy tape aspect, it's the mastering that counts.

FWIW, SH may be wrong - King Records apparently did have access to some original master tapes for some albums for their issues - the ones in their "Blue Note Masterpiece Special Replica 15" series. These came with big silver obis and were immaculate replicas of the original issues, differing only in their matrix numbers - vinyl weight, label material, cover material, catalogue numbers were all identical.

Edited September 18, 2008 by adhoc

[captainwrong]

It's not that I can't afford them, I'm just holding out for the inevitable 78 rpm issues. That's gotta be (almost) twice as good as these 45s, right?

Edited September 18, 2008 by Captain Wrong

[Daniel A]

FWIW, SH may be wrong - King Records apparently did have access to some original master tapes for some albums for their issues - the ones in their "Blue Note Masterpiece Special Replica 15" series. These came with big silver obis and were immaculate replicas of the original issues, differing only in their matrix numbers - vinyl weight, label material, cover material, catalogue numbers were all identical.

I've got both "Replica" and "ordinary" King issues of Herbie Hancock's 'Maiden Voyage', and while it was some time since I compared them I don't think the difference is that great between the two. So personally I don't worry that much if original tapes were used or not as long as the result is good - or even great - sound. Interesting information, though. Where did you learn this?

Edited September 18, 2008 by Daniel A

[kh1958]

It's not that I can't afford them, I'm just holding out for the inevitable 78 rpm issues. That's gotta be (almost) twice as good as these 45s, right?

I'm holding out until I have a servant to flip the record over every eight minutes.

[captainwrong]

It's not that I can't afford them, I'm just holding out for the inevitable 78 rpm issues. That's gotta be (almost) twice as good as these 45s, right?

I'm holding out until I have a servant to flip the record over every eight minutes.

[clifford_thornton]

I'm a whiner, and I would rather spend my $50 on filling an FMP gap or buying a cool boxed set than re-buying a BN I already have in King, Liberty, or CD form.

(said from my pile of money on a houseboat smoking reefer)

[adhoc]

FWIW, SH may be wrong - King Records apparently did have access to some original master tapes for some albums for their issues - the ones in their "Blue Note Masterpiece Special Replica 15" series. These came with big silver obis and were immaculate replicas of the original issues, differing only in their matrix numbers - vinyl weight, label material, cover material, catalogue numbers were all identical.

I've got both "Replica" and "ordinary" King issues of Herbie Hancock's 'Maiden Voyage', and while it was some time since I compared them I don't think the difference is that great between the two. So personally I don't worry that much if original tapes were used or not as long as the result is good - or even great - sound. Interesting information, though. Where did you learn this?

I was told that by a record seller who got that information directly from Michael Cuscuna - now before you discount this information based on that, this seller was actually a specialist in classical music, and only an enthusiast (and not a dealer) for jazz records.

FWIW, my copy of Horace Silver - Blowin' the Blues Away on the King "Replica" series actually blows away the original issue!! Dead silent surfaces, and it just sounds so much like the original, only a little better somehow - somehow it has a little more 'presence'. Who'da thunk it?

WRT your experience, I would tend to agree with you - Maiden Voyage sounds particularly good on the 'standard' King issue to my ears. I can see how it might be difficult to top. Just curious - is yours the GXK- or GXF- issue? Mine's the GXF- one.

[sidewinder]

Maiden Voyage sounds particularly good on the 'standard' King issue to my ears. I can see how it might be difficult to top. Just curious - is yours the GXK- or GXF- issue? Mine's the GXF- one.

The King is very good - but the New York mono deep groove version is better I think. Well, that's my personal preference.

[porcy62]

Maiden Voyage sounds particularly good on the 'standard' King issue to my ears. I can see how it might be difficult to top. Just curious - is yours the GXK- or GXF- issue? Mine's the GXF- one.

The King is very good - but the New York mono deep groove version is better I think. Well, that's my personal preference.

Thanks SW, I'll spin it after dinner.

[sidewinder]

Maiden Voyage sounds particularly good on the 'standard' King issue to my ears. I can see how it might be difficult to top. Just curious - is yours the GXK- or GXF- issue? Mine's the GXF- one.

The King is very good - but the New York mono deep groove version is better I think. Well, that's my personal preference.

Thanks SW, I'll spin it after dinner.

Yeah - me too.

[Daniel A]

WRT your experience, I would tend to agree with you - Maiden Voyage sounds particularly good on the 'standard' King issue to my ears. I can see how it might be difficult to top. Just curious - is yours the GXK- or GXF- issue? Mine's the GXF- one.

Mine's GXK-

Guess they're both good!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Someone over on the Hoffman forums put a few of these LPs up for sale for $35 a piece. Just because I happened to have a large PayPal balance after selling a few items, I decided, "What the hell", and decided to see what the fuss was about. I ordered three of them. I got Morgan's "Lee-way", Gordon's "Dexter Calling" and Blakey's "Moanin'".

In a nutshell, they sound very nice.

Elaborating, to my ears, they sound very similar to the TOCJ CD versions. In fact, I am comparing them (I happen to have a TOCJ version for each) right now and they sound so close, I have to say that at $50, this would not be money well spent for this Blue Note fanatic.

And getting up every 10 minutes is a royal pain in the ass!!!!!

I am still on the fence for the SACDs Hoffman's working on. At least those are ONLY $30 (!!!!) and they will play longer than 10 fucking minutes before I have to get up.

[adhoc]

Kevin,

Which 'TOCJ' version? There are tons out there.

Cheers!

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

They marked the new Dolby A dub turks the "MASTER" and ash canned the original Van Gelder tapes (and a lot of Jan & Dean, etc. stuff). This engineer named "Bert" did them all and when we (Ron F. and other restoration engineers across the land) see the name BERT in the new tape box legend we cringe, knowing it's going to be a dub that is incorrectly marked MASTER. Thing is, it actually (in a sense) IS the master 'cause that is what we have to master stuff with now that the originals are burned

i have to really pay more attn to this other forum- im appaled yet oddly attracted to hearing tales like this--- did they really just have complete idiots in charge back in the 80s? too much happy powder perhaps? what in the holy hell of all things holy? was he just trying to "create work" to make his job look prouctive? thats the only thing i can logically think of. did he TRULY think re doing the tapes was in the name of preservation?

[sidewinder]

Whether or not you go for the Music Matters 45 rpm sets likely has a lot to do with the quality of your playback systems. In my case, the vinyl side is quite a bit better than the CD side, so the payback is fairly obvious. On the MM sets I like the cover art Francis Wolf photos too. Turning the LPs every 10 mins is a pain in the ass though.

[Claude]

Kevin,

Which 'TOCJ' version? There are tons out there.

I think Kevin means the early ones from the 90's, using the original blue Note album numbers (TOCJ-4219 etc).

I have the same experience, comparing a few CD versions with the Music Matters LPs. The TOCJs sound closest to the LPs.

[J.A.W.]

Kevin,

Which 'TOCJ' version? There are tons out there.

Cheers!

Kevin told me he's compared the 45s and TOCJs from the Toshiba "Blue Note Works" CD series that were issued in the 1990s, with catalogue numbers TOCJ-15XX, TOCJ-16XX and TOCJ-4XXX.

Edited October 15, 2008 by J.A.W.

[michel1969]

I'm a whiner, and I would rather spend my $50 on filling an FMP gap or buying a cool boxed set than re-buying a BN I already have in King, Liberty, or CD form.

(said from my pile of money on a houseboat smoking reefer)

That is the problem with this reissue policy, and the agressive marketing of Steve "mr know it all" Hoffman and his distinguished colleagues. They will always tell you that this one is better than previous, ths state of the art, etc... buying every kind of reissue will eventually make you spend the equivalent of the price of the original.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Kevin,

Which 'TOCJ' version? There are tons out there.

I think Kevin means the early ones from the 90's, using the original blue Note album numbers (TOCJ-4219 etc).

I have the same experience, comparing a few CD versions with the Music Matters LPs. The TOCJs sound closest to the LPs.

Claude - Dare you to say that over on the SH forums!

To be honest, I was actually expecting more differences. If I were to rank them, I think Morgan's "Lee-way" is the least improved and Blakey's "Moanin'" probably a bit better - but neither was a "Wow" moment. And since they all sounded good, if you have the cash and don't mind getting up every 8-10 minutes, go for it. I have better things to spend my money on. Like that new Victory Kingpin I'm planning to buy someday.

I am so glad I decided to buy up as many of those TOCJ-4XXX CDs when I did. I probably have a little less than half of that catalog by now.

BTW, over on Hoffman's forum, he started a thread titled "New dual-layer SACDs from vintage BLUE NOTE Analogue Prods, questions answered here.." and - he doesn't... well, at least not my question. I have asked him three or four times if he had to use his special de-RVG box on the Blue Note tapes and he seems to just ignores the question. Well, maybe I'm just "ignore-worthy".

Kevin

[michel1969]

Kevin,

Which 'TOCJ' version? There are tons out there.

I think Kevin means the early ones from the 90's, using the original blue Note album numbers (TOCJ-4219 etc).

I have the same experience, comparing a few CD versions with the Music Matters LPs. The TOCJs sound closest to the LPs.

Claude - Dare you to say that over on the SH forums!

For sure ! Ayatollah Hoffmann will not be happy. beware of the Fatwa !!

Edited October 15, 2008 by Michel